Dear BXVI DB members,
Sadly the post at the very bottom is typical of the "new church" anti papal/Ratzinger nonsense that has flooded our www.Cathnews.com.au discussion forum in Australia since its inception.
A few of us do our best to take on the misinformed knockers as can be seen in the post below:
Re your comments about the Church needing a "globally minded Pope":
I think it would be best to read Pope Benedict's writings such as Salt of the Earth, Introduction to Christianity to mention only two wonderful and very global thinking books and you will see that he is indeed mega global in his total thinking.
Also Pope Benedict XVI is fluent in the following languages.
German
Latin
Italian
French
English
Spanish
Portuguese
not forgetting his skills in Hebrew and Greek and Polish.
I think this is the evidence one needs to support the fact of how truly global thinking our excellent Pope is. He didn't learn so many languages simply to enjoy a holiday in these countries. No he learned them so that he could communicate with many peoples of the world and understand their cultures and thinking.
Just because our outstanding Holy Father doesn't tow the line with the various anti Catholic and anti Christian secular lobbies does not give one an excuse to denigrate the person, character, spirituality and intellect of His Holiness.
Of course His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI is a most charitable person according to the understanding of that word that conforms with what Jesus has taught us as charity and not misconstrued new age secular thinking on the matter of Christian charity.
As for your erroneous comments re Christians who are not Catholics I think it important to read what His Holiness actually said and not a deliberately misinterpreted second hand account.
Participation by Christians who are not Catholic
56. The subject of participation in the Eucharist inevitably raises the question of Christians belonging to Churches or Ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church. In this regard, it must be said that the intrinsic link between the Eucharist and the Church's unity inspires us to long for the day when we will be able to celebrate the Holy Eucharist together with all believers in Christ, and in this way to express visibly the fullness of unity that Christ willed for his disciples (cf. Jn 17:21). On the other hand, the respect we owe to the sacrament of Christ's Body and Blood prevents us from making it a mere "means" to be used indiscriminately in order to attain that unity. (172) The Eucharist in fact not only manifests our personal communion with Jesus Christ, but also implies full communio with the Church. This is the reason why, sadly albeit not without hope, we ask Christians who are not Catholic to understand and respect our conviction, which is grounded in the Bible and Tradition. We hold that eucharistic communion and ecclesial communion are so linked as to make it generally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive the former without enjoying the latter. There would be even less sense in actually concelebrating with ministers of Churches or ecclesial communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church. Yet it remains true that, for the sake of their eternal salvation, individual non-Catholic Christians can be admitted to the Eucharist, the sacrament of Reconciliation and the Anointing of the Sick. But this is possible only in specific, exceptional situations and requires that certain precisely defined conditions be met (173). These are clearly indicated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (174) and in its Compendium (175). Everyone is obliged to observe these norms faithfully.
May Our Lord watch and and protect His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
This is the offending post.
Sadly indeed it does fall short..especially when measured against the life and actions and examples of Jesus.Many of those who've posted their responses have clearly either not thoroughly read the documents in question or quite grasped the essentials.
Pope Benedict clearly wants to wind the clock back to the times he more fondly remembers..and he's entitled to those sentiments. But it doesn't mean that just because you're Pope you can simply do as you like...although many people prefer to be blindly led because they're too lazy to think things through and prefer to make no personal effort.
Clearly, a long, long time ago...the Latin Mass as such should never have been simply dumped..that was simply stupid and drove so many Catholics away. Better indeed to have allowed limited usage, not necessarily at parish level.
It may be, that some of the larger parishes might offer say one in 4 or five of its Masses in Latin..but that's all.
Gregorian chant is beautiful...but let's have some reality in terms of the global church. people need to think beyond their simple personal likes and dislikes...and that can include Popes as well as peasants.
The laity..which probably represents more than 80% of the church needs to have its input into the liturgy...why should it be the sole preserve of the clergy? No reason at all. No defensible reason.
Times changes and tastes and music changes..and the church must move with the times and welcome change. It doesn't have to be strident and ugly...but it needn't be at one extreme or the other either.
The dwindling global priesthood has more realistic things to do that to embrace the POope's exhortation to "execute Gregorian chants." Jesus had no problem with communicating with the simple folk of his times...why do we have a Pope two millennia on who can't similarly identify? "Execute" indeed!
The section of the document sub-headed "Non-Catholics at Catholic services...does nothing to draw Christians together...it does however drive a realwedge between them. The Pope should also be told that the phrase "Non-Catholics" is no longer an acceptable label. I said earlier the document lacked charity..despite its title.
Consider his harshness over the funeral or wedding Masses...over the issue of "non practising Catholics or members of other faiths" being present.That is unpardonable and would make any serious Catholic cringe...and others to hasten to remind the offended that the Pope lives in another world altogether...not just in terms of far from Australia...but very far from the tenets of Jesus.
Celibacy is not "a priceless treasure".Optional celibacy could be considered a gift providing it was something given rather than demanded as is presently the case.Celibacy cannot be equated to the SACRAMENT of marriage, let alone superior to it as some are even inclined to think.
The ongoing ostracisation...the utterly unforgiveable ostracisation of married Catholic priests..who were told they were to be "priests forever" is simply appalling. These men have as much right as any lay person to be reading the scriptures or distributing Holy Communion...in some cases much more.
Sometimes, I reflect back to the earliest times when the disciples spoke to Jesus about their "rewards"..."what about us..we have given everything"...and I think things haven't changed much.Essentially that there are clergy whoactuallythink they might be done out of something come judgment day....that they might receive only the same "reward" as the ordinary layman or woman. They need to be shown that a one litre glass can only contain one litre of liquid...not 16 million litres.
The document is essentially, basically, threadbare: an embarrassment.
It ignores the youth totally..and in turn, the youth will totally ignore it at its peril.
Only a globally-minded Pope could see and regard and address this. We'll have to pray for such a person to come along very soon.
Consider the people who surrounded Jesus...no, not the vain and ambitious clergy who went on to murder Him...no, the simple broken people that he didn't address in a foreign language with some Gregorian chant playing in the background.
Time again to reflect on the real loneliness in the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus was alone then with his companions asleep...What's changed?
I say again, sadly nothing for the better!
How about some of the BXVI DB posters go over to www.cathnews.com.au and hit the discussion button and make a few posts drawing the attention about the great work of BXVI to the good Catholics who read post in the Cathnews forum forum ?
Many of us would be appreciative of the support. There are now requirements to join, one can simply post at will.
Thank you
M
Sadly the post at the very bottom is typical of the "new church" anti papal/Ratzinger nonsense that has flooded our www.Cathnews.com.au discussion forum in Australia since its inception.
A few of us do our best to take on the misinformed knockers as can be seen in the post below:
Re your comments about the Church needing a "globally minded Pope":
I think it would be best to read Pope Benedict's writings such as Salt of the Earth, Introduction to Christianity to mention only two wonderful and very global thinking books and you will see that he is indeed mega global in his total thinking.
Also Pope Benedict XVI is fluent in the following languages.
German
Latin
Italian
French
English
Spanish
Portuguese
not forgetting his skills in Hebrew and Greek and Polish.
I think this is the evidence one needs to support the fact of how truly global thinking our excellent Pope is. He didn't learn so many languages simply to enjoy a holiday in these countries. No he learned them so that he could communicate with many peoples of the world and understand their cultures and thinking.
Just because our outstanding Holy Father doesn't tow the line with the various anti Catholic and anti Christian secular lobbies does not give one an excuse to denigrate the person, character, spirituality and intellect of His Holiness.
Of course His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI is a most charitable person according to the understanding of that word that conforms with what Jesus has taught us as charity and not misconstrued new age secular thinking on the matter of Christian charity.
As for your erroneous comments re Christians who are not Catholics I think it important to read what His Holiness actually said and not a deliberately misinterpreted second hand account.
Participation by Christians who are not Catholic
56. The subject of participation in the Eucharist inevitably raises the question of Christians belonging to Churches or Ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church. In this regard, it must be said that the intrinsic link between the Eucharist and the Church's unity inspires us to long for the day when we will be able to celebrate the Holy Eucharist together with all believers in Christ, and in this way to express visibly the fullness of unity that Christ willed for his disciples (cf. Jn 17:21). On the other hand, the respect we owe to the sacrament of Christ's Body and Blood prevents us from making it a mere "means" to be used indiscriminately in order to attain that unity. (172) The Eucharist in fact not only manifests our personal communion with Jesus Christ, but also implies full communio with the Church. This is the reason why, sadly albeit not without hope, we ask Christians who are not Catholic to understand and respect our conviction, which is grounded in the Bible and Tradition. We hold that eucharistic communion and ecclesial communion are so linked as to make it generally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive the former without enjoying the latter. There would be even less sense in actually concelebrating with ministers of Churches or ecclesial communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church. Yet it remains true that, for the sake of their eternal salvation, individual non-Catholic Christians can be admitted to the Eucharist, the sacrament of Reconciliation and the Anointing of the Sick. But this is possible only in specific, exceptional situations and requires that certain precisely defined conditions be met (173). These are clearly indicated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (174) and in its Compendium (175). Everyone is obliged to observe these norms faithfully.
May Our Lord watch and and protect His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
This is the offending post.
Sadly indeed it does fall short..especially when measured against the life and actions and examples of Jesus.Many of those who've posted their responses have clearly either not thoroughly read the documents in question or quite grasped the essentials.
Pope Benedict clearly wants to wind the clock back to the times he more fondly remembers..and he's entitled to those sentiments. But it doesn't mean that just because you're Pope you can simply do as you like...although many people prefer to be blindly led because they're too lazy to think things through and prefer to make no personal effort.
Clearly, a long, long time ago...the Latin Mass as such should never have been simply dumped..that was simply stupid and drove so many Catholics away. Better indeed to have allowed limited usage, not necessarily at parish level.
It may be, that some of the larger parishes might offer say one in 4 or five of its Masses in Latin..but that's all.
Gregorian chant is beautiful...but let's have some reality in terms of the global church. people need to think beyond their simple personal likes and dislikes...and that can include Popes as well as peasants.
The laity..which probably represents more than 80% of the church needs to have its input into the liturgy...why should it be the sole preserve of the clergy? No reason at all. No defensible reason.
Times changes and tastes and music changes..and the church must move with the times and welcome change. It doesn't have to be strident and ugly...but it needn't be at one extreme or the other either.
The dwindling global priesthood has more realistic things to do that to embrace the POope's exhortation to "execute Gregorian chants." Jesus had no problem with communicating with the simple folk of his times...why do we have a Pope two millennia on who can't similarly identify? "Execute" indeed!
The section of the document sub-headed "Non-Catholics at Catholic services...does nothing to draw Christians together...it does however drive a realwedge between them. The Pope should also be told that the phrase "Non-Catholics" is no longer an acceptable label. I said earlier the document lacked charity..despite its title.
Consider his harshness over the funeral or wedding Masses...over the issue of "non practising Catholics or members of other faiths" being present.That is unpardonable and would make any serious Catholic cringe...and others to hasten to remind the offended that the Pope lives in another world altogether...not just in terms of far from Australia...but very far from the tenets of Jesus.
Celibacy is not "a priceless treasure".Optional celibacy could be considered a gift providing it was something given rather than demanded as is presently the case.Celibacy cannot be equated to the SACRAMENT of marriage, let alone superior to it as some are even inclined to think.
The ongoing ostracisation...the utterly unforgiveable ostracisation of married Catholic priests..who were told they were to be "priests forever" is simply appalling. These men have as much right as any lay person to be reading the scriptures or distributing Holy Communion...in some cases much more.
Sometimes, I reflect back to the earliest times when the disciples spoke to Jesus about their "rewards"..."what about us..we have given everything"...and I think things haven't changed much.Essentially that there are clergy whoactuallythink they might be done out of something come judgment day....that they might receive only the same "reward" as the ordinary layman or woman. They need to be shown that a one litre glass can only contain one litre of liquid...not 16 million litres.
The document is essentially, basically, threadbare: an embarrassment.
It ignores the youth totally..and in turn, the youth will totally ignore it at its peril.
Only a globally-minded Pope could see and regard and address this. We'll have to pray for such a person to come along very soon.
Consider the people who surrounded Jesus...no, not the vain and ambitious clergy who went on to murder Him...no, the simple broken people that he didn't address in a foreign language with some Gregorian chant playing in the background.
Time again to reflect on the real loneliness in the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus was alone then with his companions asleep...What's changed?
I say again, sadly nothing for the better!
How about some of the BXVI DB posters go over to www.cathnews.com.au and hit the discussion button and make a few posts drawing the attention about the great work of BXVI to the good Catholics who read post in the Cathnews forum forum ?
Many of us would be appreciative of the support. There are now requirements to join, one can simply post at will.
Thank you
M
