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Nana wrote:Ripk, I don't know if Pope Paul VI was being theatrical with his gesture. But I think that there is a lot of things that we don't know about him. After all, the Pope was a close collaborator of Pope Pius XII (RIP).
Sep 7 13 6:14 AM
Msgr. Virgilio Noè, Master of Pontifical Ceremonies (1970 - 1982)At Roger’s earlier request, we are reposting Virgilio Cardinal Noè‘s interview regarding Paul VI’s “smoke of Satan” remark. It was pronounced on June 29, 1972 on the ninth anniversary of his Papal Coronation during a homily given at a Mass inside St. Peter’s Basilica for the solemnity of Saint Peter and Saint Paul. The Italian text is here.Referring to the situation of the Church back in 1972 (only THREE years after he imposed the New Rite of the Mass), Paul VI affirmed that he had a sense that “from some fissure the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God.” Even from the very beginning of the liturgical experimentation there was doubt, incertitude, problematic, disquiet, dissatisfaction, confrontation. There was no longer trust of the Church. He claimed that “doubt has entered our consciences, and it entered by windows that should have been open to the light”. Cardinal Noè (+24 July 2011) served as Undersecretary of the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship from 1969–75. In 1970, Paul VI appointed him the first Master of Pontifical Liturgical Celebrations. He held this position till 1982, thus presiding in 2 papal funerals, 2 conclaves and ending up serving three popes.Cardinal Noe on the "Smoke of Satan" and L'Osservatore Romano on the new Roman personal parishby Shawn Tribe @ The New Liturgical Movement website:Thursday, May 15, 2008 - Petrus (an Italian site) has an exclusive interview with Cardinal Noè, the former papal Master of Ceremonies under Paul VI on through to the earlier years of John Paul II's pontificate, which addresses the question of what Paul VI was referring to in his famed "smoke in the sanctuary" remark. On that question, Cardinal Noè revealed that Paul VI meant to speak of all those clergy, even bishops and cardinals, who poorly celebrated the sacred liturgy (Novus Ordo) through an erroneous interpretation and application of Vatican II, and who thereby distorted the traditional liturgy of the Church. Here is the relevant passage:You at Petrus, have made a real blow, because I am in a position of revealing for the first time what Paul VI meant to denounce with that statement. Here it is. Pope Montini [speaking of Satan] meant to classify all those priests, bishops and cardinals who didn’t render worship to the Lord by badly celebrating Holy Mass through an erroneous interpretation and application of the Second Vatican Council. He spoke of the smoke of Satan [with regard to these clergy] who turned Holy Mass into straw in the name of creativity, but who in truth were possessed of the vainglory and the pride of the Evil One. Therefore, the smoke of Satan was none other than the mentality that wanted to distort the traditional canons and liturgy of the Eucharistic ceremony.The interview presented Cardinal Noe's clear affinity and love for Pope Montini. He spoke of his role as Master of Ceremonies during the time of the liturgical reform. He also spoke of the fact that the liturgy must always be celebrated with decorum and spoke highly of the manner in which Pope Benedict XVI celebrated the liturgy. Cardinal Noe further noted that there is a need to "recover, and quickly" the sense of the sacred in the liturgy. 30 November 1977 – Virgilio Noè next to Paul VI during the Opening Mass for the Synod of Bishops at the Sistine Chapel PETRUS: Amazing interview with Card. Noè: Paul VI’s “smoke of Satan” remark concerned liturgyPosted on 15 May 2008 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf On the site Petrus there is an interview by Bruno Volpe with His Eminence Virgilio Card. Noè, [pronounced "No-eh"] "former papal MC, the predecessor of Archbp. Piero Marini. These are very interesting comments. He speaks of the phrase of Paul VI that the "smoke of Satan" had entered the Church and what Paul VI meant by that phrase. The revelation of Card. Noè:" When Paul VI denounced the smoke of Satan in the Church, he was referring to liturgical abuses following Vatican II."CITTA’ DEL VATICANO by Bruno VolpeHe speaks with a thread of a voice and at times laboring for breath he it is so difficult he has to stop. But his mind is lucid and his heart is sound.. The interview with Virgilio Card. Noè, 86 (at the time of the interview in 2008), Master of Liturgical Ceremonies during the Pontificates of Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul II, once the Archpriest of the Basilica of St. Peter and Vicar of the Pope for Vatican City, showed himself to be at the same time both touching and engaging. The Cardinal, who has very much abandoned public life because of the infirmities of old age, helps us, taking us my the hand, better to know a Pontiff – wrongly forgotten in history’s haste: Giovanni Battista Montini. He revealed for the first time what Paul VI was referring to precisely when in 1972 he denounced the presence of the smoke of Satan in the Church.Your Eminence, who was Pope Paul VI?A real gentleman, a saint. I remember still how he lived the Eucharistic Mystery, with passion and participation. When I think of him I tear up, but not in the way of a hypocrite. I am truly moved. I owe him a great deal, he taught me a lot, he lived and paid a great price for the Church.You had the privilege to be Master of Liturgical Ceremonies precisely because of the assignment from Papa Montini in the time of the post-Conciliar reform. How do you remember those times?Splendidly. Once the Holy Father said to me, personally, and in a very tender way, how the MC ought to carry out his role in that particular historical period. He came into the sacristy. I drew near and he said: "The MC must foresee everything and taken everything on himself, he has the task of making the Pope’s road smoother."Did he add anything else?He affirmed that the spirit of the MC must not be shaken up by anything, large or small, that may be his own personal problems. An MC, he stressed, must remain also the master of himself and be the Pope’s shield, so that Holy Mass can be celebrated in a dignified way, for the glory of God and His people.How did the Holy Father take the liturgical reform desired by Vatican II?With pleasure.It is told that Paul VI was quite a sad man, true or legend?A lie. He was a good and gentle father, a gentleman and a saint. At the same time, he was saddened by the fact of having been left alone by the Roman Curia. But I would prefer not to talk about that.As a whole, against the historians, You, as one of his closest and trust collaborators, describe Papa Montini as a serene person.He was. Do you know why? Because he also affirmed that whoever serves the Lord cannot ever be sad. He he served Him especially in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Paul VI’s denunciation of the presence of the smoke of Satan in the Church is unforgettable. Still today, that discourse seems to be incredibly relevant. You from Petrus, have gotten a real scoop here, because I am in a position to reveal, for the first time, what Paul VI desired to denounce with that statement. Here it is. Papa Montini, for Satan, meant to include all those priests or bishops and cardinals who didn’t render worship to the Lord by celebrating badly (mal celebrando) Holy Mass because of an errant interpretation of the implementation of the Second Vatican Council. He spoke of the smoke of Satan because he maintained that those priests who turned Holy Mass into dry straw in the name of creativity, in reality were possessed of the vainglory and the pride of the Evil One. so, the smoke of Satan was nothing other than the mentality which wanted to distort the traditional and liturgical canons of the Eucharistic ceremony."It is thought that Paul VI was the real culprit as the cause of all the ills of post-Conciliar liturgy. But based on what you have revealed, Eminence, Montini compared the liturgical chaos, even if in a veiled way, actually to something hellish.He condemned craving to be in the limelight and the delirium of almighty power that they were following the Council at the liturgical level. Mass is a sacred ceremony, he often repeated, everything must be prepared and studied adequately, respecting the canons, no one is "dominus" [lord] of the Mass. Sadly, in many after Vatican II not many understood him and Paul VI suffered this, considering the phenomenon to be an attack of the Devil.Your Eminence, in conclusion, what is true liturgy?It renders glory to God. Liturgy must be carried out always and no matter what with decorum: even a sign of the Cross poorly made is synonymous with scorn and sloppiness. Alas, I repeat, after Vatican II it was believed that everything, or nearly, was permitted. Now it is necessary to recover, and in a hurry, the sense of the sacred in the ars celebrandi, before the smoke of Satan completely pervades the whole Church. Thanks be to God, we have Pope Benedict XVI: his Mass and his liturgical style are an example of correctness and dignity.(note ripk10: Back than we were very grateful, thankful even hopeful for having Benedict XVI as the Head of the visible Church, and for his liturgical style as AN EXAMPLE OR CORRECTNESS AND DIGNITY! With his resignation that has all turned to a depression and desperation. He was succeeded by someone who can care less about the liturgy. With Bergoglio we have returned to the year where the smoke of Satan completely pervades the whole Church!)Pope Benedict XVI greeting Cardinal Noe during a Memorial Mass for the John Paul II (CNS photo/Paul Haring)The following remarks were made at the time by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf . First of all, I have good and bad memories of Card. Noè. He was the one who tore out the altar of the Chair in the apse of St. Peter’s. He was one of the main causes of the emasculation of the style of papal ceremonies and the minimalism we experience still in many places. (Note Ripk10: I disagree, it was Aurelio Cardinal Sabattani who ordered to jackhammer the old altar designed and built at the time of Bernini)At the same time, I remember what a gentleman he was. I would from time to time encounter him in the Basilica in the mornings. I said Mass there everyday. In the corridor between the sacristy and the basilica he would step reverently aside for any priest going to or coming from Mass. He would say quietly to those going, "Memento" and to those returning, "Prosit". Old school. Also, he made sure the Basilica was clean, which was a real change in those day that persists to today. Still, while I take what His Eminence says about Paul VI cvm grano salis, I was very interested to read his high praise of Pope Benedict, whom he respects for his liturgical style.Cardinal Noè wasn’t a real fan of the Polish Pope’s style, for sure, and there was some tension there. As a matter of fact Noè was just a little impatient and bossy with him, who wasn’t all that interested in the finer points of liturgy. I remember a story from a papal MC who was present one day toward the end of Msgr. Noè’s service as MC to John Paul II. The Pope would descend using an elevator to the floor of the basilica and then, after being greeted according to protocol by the MC and others, would go to vest. One today, as I said close to the end of Noè’s time, when the MC greeted the Pope, John Paul II responded "Oggi, Monsignore, faccio io papa!…. Today, Monsignor, I think I’ll be the Pope." Msgr. Noè moved along to a new post in the Congregation not long after that.And in Spanish: Pablo VI pensaba en los abusos litúrgicos cuando se refirió al "humo de Satanás" dentro de la Iglesia
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Sep 9 13 12:30 PM
What you have described in your post Smoke of Satan, Garbrielle Rose, is a very terrifying perspective. I used to dismiss these types of claims as conspiracy theories until I found out that the celebration of the Black Eucharist does actually take place (thankfully in very few places).Regarding Francis, you can give him all the time in the world you would. I assure you and I guarantee you that there will be no development in his style. The man simply does not want to be a pope. We all know this. Why deny it? Regarding if the modern world needs a new style of papacy, this is a very extensive topic. Generally speaking, the modern world does not need a papacy as a principle, so a new type of it would be irrelevant. The modern man has become anthropocentric and very egocentric. He needs no gods nor popes nor priests. He alone is all that and more! Anyway, this tread is devoted to Paul VI... and, our postings shall be on this topic. Apologies for my deviance.
Oct 6 13 1:21 PM
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Oct 26 13 2:54 AM
Fifty years later:Were there really "two" Councils?
Pope Paul VI welcomed journalists to
the Second Session of Vatican II in early October 1963 ...
and warned them against an "easy" altering, even
"falsify(ing)" what was taking place:
----------------------------(The following, Pope Paul VI to journalists - 2 Oct 1963)
"Welcome to the Vatican, which we are pleased to note, is becoming
well-known to a large number of you. For the Pope, audiences follow one after
the other. But he cannot hide the very special joy which he feels in spending
some time with the journalists and the reporters for radio and television.
And we are happy to express our gratitude to editors of newspapers and
directors of radio stations, who have assigned to Rome to cover these council
meetings so many reporters in whom we are pleased to recognize both high
quality and professional competence.
We have already had occasion to tell you of the esteem we hold for journalists,
and how aware we are of the importance they occupy in the world of today, with their
tremendous power over public opinion. Theirs is a choice place. And you
know that the honor of your profession demands, on your part, objective
reporting and constant concern for the truth.
... There could be the temptation to search out certain well-known
“fiends”: nationalism, conflicting tendencies, parties, as well as historical
and geographical differences, such as between East and West.If attention is limited to these externals or if it undertakes to
emphasize them, then the reality of things is altered, even falsified.
For all the bishops are endeavoring to avoid giving any substance to these
divisions, in order on the contrary to be guided by the objective divine truth
which they profess and by the fraternal charity which animates them.
Yes, the Church, as she appears before you cannot fail to make you
reflect and — herein is its apologetical force — lead you to Him from whom she
draws her very life: Christ, the invisible Head of the Church assembled in
Nearly fifty years later, on Thursday
February 14, 2013, Pope Benedict XVI met for the last time with the
clergy of the Diocese of Rome in the Paul VI Hall at the Vatican ...and chatted with them about the Second Vatican Council,
"as I saw it..."He spoke of a "council of the media", which at the time may
have been stronger than "the real Council."(The following - Pope Benedict XVI to the priests of Rome, 14 Feb 2013)
"For today, given the conditions of my age, I could not prepare a great,
real address, as one might expect, but rather I thought of chatting about the
Second Vatican Council, as I saw it..."
"We went to the Council not only with joy, but with enthusiasm. The
expectation was incredible. We hoped that everything would be renewed, that a
new Pentecost really would come, a new era of the Church, because the Church
was not robust enough at that time: the Sunday practice was still good, even
vocations to the priesthood and religious life were already somewhat fewer, but
still sufficient. But nevertheless, there was the feeling that the Church was
going on, but getting smaller, that somehow it seemed like a reality of the
past and not the bearer of the future. And now, we hoped that this relationship
would be renewed, changed, that the Church would once again source of strength
for today and tomorrow. "
"Everyone arrived with great expectations; there had never been a
Council of this size, but not everyone knew how to make it work. ""It appeared to many as a struggle for power, and maybe
someone did think about power, but basically it was not about power, but the
complementarity of the factors and the completeness of the body of the Church
with the bishops, the successors the apostles as bearers, and each of them is a
pillar of the Church together with this great body”.
"... Yet, there was the Council of the Fathers - the true Council -
but there was also the Council of the media. It was almost a Council in and of
itself, and the world perceived the Council through them, through the
media. So the immediate Council that got thorough to the people, was that of
the media, not that of the Fathers. And while the Council of the Fathers
evolved within the faith, it was a Council of the faith that sought the
intellectus, that sought to understand and try to understand the signs of God
at that moment, that tried to meet the challenge of God in this time to find
the words for today and tomorrow. So while the whole council - as I said -
moved within the faith, as fides quaerens intellectum, the Council of
journalists did not, naturally, take place within the world of faith but within
the categories of the media of today, that is outside of the faith, with
different hermeneutics. It was a hermeneutic of politics. The media saw the
Council as a political struggle, a struggle for power between different
currents within the Church. It was obvious that the media would take the side
of whatever faction best suited their world. There were those who sought
a decentralization of the Church, power for the bishops and then, through the
Word for the "people of God", the power of the people, the laity.
There was this triple issue: the power of the Pope, then transferred to the
power of the bishops and then the power of all ... popular sovereignty..."
"And we know that this Council of the media was accessible to all.
So, dominant, more efficient, this Council created many calamities, so many
problems, so much misery, in reality: seminaries closed, convents
closed liturgy trivialized ... and the true Council has struggled to
materialize, to be realized: the virtual Council was stronger than the
real Council. But the real strength of the Council was present
and slowly it has emerged and is becoming the real power which is also true
reform, true renewal of the Church."
"It seems to me that 50 years after the Council, we see how this
Virtual Council is breaking down, getting lost and the true Council is emerging
with all its spiritual strength. And it is our task, in this Year of
Faith, starting from this Year of Faith, to work so that the true Council with
the power of the Holy Spirit is realized and Church is really renewed. We hope
that the Lord will help us. I, retired in prayer, will always be with you, and
together we will move ahead with the Lord in certainty. The Lord is
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