See also:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sec...an_Council under "First session"
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Welcome to The Pope Benedict XVI Forum
The Pope Benedict XVI Fan Club invites your participation in our open, yet civil and (hopefully) respectful discussion of topics by and about Pope Benedict XVI and general issues in Catholic faith & theology. Members, please acquaint yourself with our FORUM RULES -- failure to abide by the rules will result in warnings from the moderator and possible expulsion by the management.
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LQuidFire |
Re: Facing East during Consecration | #21 | ||
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papistseminarian, I am sure Vaticanum II was a pastoral council and not a dogmatic one, like Wolfruna says, too. Please check it out before talking about heresy etc...
See also: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sec...an_Council under "First session" |
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galantarie |
Pastoral / Dogmatic | #22 | ||
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Would this be of any help from Aidan Nichols, paraphrasing Our Papa, in Kln 1963:
Holistic: Ratzinger's own terms were 'pastoral' and 'ecumenical', which did not, he insisted, mean 'muddled' and 'amgiguous'! Dogmatic formulations must retain their value as objective truth, the bearing of which can be gauged unambiguously from their history. 'Pastoral' must not mean wishy-washy, substanzlos. Rather it should signify a concern for modern people who 'want to hear what the faith has positively to teach them'. _________________________________________________ This comes from page 46 of Papa's evaluation of the First Session of the Vatican Council II, in-which Papa was a theological advisor to Arch-Bishop Frings...The first of 4 Books he wrote on the Council. May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world!
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papistseminarian |
Re: Pastoral / Dogmatic | #23 | ||
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I was stating what i had been taught. Over all VII was not entirely dogmatic, it did produce some dogmatic constitutions. The real issue is that it does not matter if it was or was not dogmatic, it still is as binding. We cannot just pick and choose what we will and will not believe, Christ has revealed all to Holy Mother Church, and She stands by what He says. The "liturgical reform" was needed, there are many abuses in the "trid" rite. The mass is still just as valid in its right form, even if you may feel it is not. Your opinion means nothing, the Truth told by Christ and proclaimed by the Church does not waver with your opinions.
"Truth is not determined by a majority vote."--Card. Ratzinger It was over all pastoral because it answered modern theological and societal questions pastorally, not less binding. The heresey is not thinking that VII is dogmatic or pastoral, it is thinking that VII is outside of the heart and mindset of Holy Mother Church. "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail."--Christ No use in discussing wheter or not dogmatic or pastoral, but the point is that the Novus Ordo is valid, and the people of God should accept this and surrender their will and ego. |
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galantarie |
The Real and Glorious Vatican II | #24 | ||
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You are certainly right, "Papistseminarian".
I just hope Papa can implement the true results of VaticanII and not what "men" made of it. There is a lot a cleaning up to do as well as making sure Church procedures and rules are NOT thrown away. There were too many misinterprtations of the work of Vatican II. Too many "Progresives" made it into a program of THEIR wants, not the Holy Roman Catholic Church's decisions. I firmly believe that is one of the reasons, Joseph Ratzinger was set aside by Christ to be Our Holy Father at this point of crisis and time in Our Holy Mother Church. _____________________________________________ UPDATE: 16 DEC.2006 Sources confirmed the recent statements to reporters by Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez, who told them after participating in a meeting of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, where the text of the motu propio was reviewed, that the document would come soon....The apostolic exhortation on the Eucharist, according to the same sources, has already been finished by Pope Benedict XVI and is being translated into the different languages in which it will be presented. The document, which sources say will be issued after January 15, reaffirms the Churchs commitment to a celibate priesthood, encourages the use of Latin in liturgical celebrations, and even requests that seminarians learn the language as part of their formation. It will also promote the recovery of Gregorian chant and sacred polyphonic music as a replacement to modern music, which would result in a gradual elimination of musical instruments that are inappropriate for the solemnity and reverence of the Eucharistic celebration. Remember, saying Mass...and that means NOVUS ORDO as well... in the vernacular [outside of the readings and homilee] is what is really against the norm. And the use of strummed guitars, banjos and rock-percussion is entertainment not fit at all for liturgical use. Who cares that "it is what I like"; it is just the plain fact we go to Mass to witness the Sacrifice of Our Lord and be Spiritually Fed by Him for one hour+. It is NOT a "communal"-affair:---as opposed to LITERAL "COMMUNION". (Do not mix-up the two words as apostatical-thinking of "progressives" have tried to do since the late 1960's.) Bless Our Holy Father. This is why he was made Our Pontiff. May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world!
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harroldian |
Re: The Real and Glorious Vatican II | #25 | ||
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Progressives and traditionalists mirror each other. The Pope is the man of the via media in the same way that anglicans used to be before they were hijacked by evangelicals and liberals.
Actually, Aidan Nicholls wants a reform of the new mass not a return to the Tridentine , Sarum or other "traditional" rites. I think BXVI is a thoroughly "Anglican" pope! I do wish supporters of the Tridentine rite would not call it the "old" or "traditional" rite. It is one of many rites. The old rite for England was the Sarum rite in many places before the reformation although there were others such as Hereford. The Pope has authorised Anglican rites in certain parishes in the USA. These ARE traditional! |
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GWSXXV |
Re: The Real and Glorious Vatican II | #26 | ||
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Afficianados of the Latin rite Mass will find this interesting:
www.cwnews.com/news/views...cnum=39635 Some of the comments below the article are worth reading, too. GEORGE's JUNGLE 24-HOUR INTERNET RADIO FROM CALGARY
streaming at 64 kbps available in mp3PRO audio website: www.georgesjungle.v29.net |
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LQuidFire |
Re: The Real and Glorious Vatican II | #27 | ||
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I think it is called Traditional Mass cuz it was the form of the Holy Mass that was used all over the Church since Pope Pius Vth, except for places / priests who were allowed to read another form? I mean, this was the Holy Mass that was celebrated from Pius Vth untill the end of the sixties. And before Pius Vth officially 'installed' the Tridentine Mass at the Council of Triente, it was read this way, too. It was a confirmation of how the Holy Mass could and can always be celebrated!
Well, i hope you understand what i mean and you will forgive me my bad english, especially now because i am very tired and having a headache God Bless! |
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galantarie |
Re: Pastoral it was says Our Papa | #28 | ||
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In the words of Joseph Ratzinger himself, 13 July 1988, NATIONAL CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS, Santiago, Chile:
"...The second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero.The truth is that this particular Council defined no dogma at all,and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level,as a merely pastoral Council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest...." May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world!
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phatcatholic |
Re: Pastoral it was says Our Papa | #29 | ||
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for more info, check out these articles:
Vatican II and Ultratraditionalism www.phatmass.com/director...cat_id/492 Liturgy and the Novus Ordo Mass www.phatmass.com/director...cat_id/493 pax christi, phatcatholic |
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groovsmyth |
Re: Pastoral it was says Our Papa | #30 | ||
Quote: GREAT quote, Christella! What a succinct way of putting it. |
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galantarie |
The Novus Ordo can be simply "GLORIOUS" ! | #31 | ||
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And was not this morning's Mass for Mary, "eines herrliches Ding" to behold and hear with the polychoral 17th Century music for the Latin liturgy sung [with brass and organ accompaniment] by the Peuri Cantores ! And despite a few coughs, the marvelous lead chanting of Our Holy Father in great tenor voice [for a man of 78 years!] O, the glories of Roman-Catholic Liturgy, when properly orchestrated (as in this case again by Piero Marini): we are so blessed!! It surely made one's soul beam inside and out...."Glory to God in the Highest, and peace to his people on Earth..."
![]() ![]() "I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."
[Ratzinger:"Salt of the Earth"] May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world! |
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galantarie |
Re: The Novus Ordo can be simply "GLORIOUS" ! | #32 | ||
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Pius V's 1570 Bull
ROME, 31 OCT.2006 (Zenit.org).- Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university. Q: "Quo Primum" is a papal bull decreed by Pope St. Pius V on July 14, 1570, which set in stone for all time the exactness of the holy sacrifice of the Mass to be said in the mother tongue of the Church. To quote his instruction: "It shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than that of this Missal published by Us; ..." Another: " which shall have the force of law in perpetuity, We order and enjoin under pain of Our displeasure that nothing be added to Our newly published Missal, nothing omitted therefrom, and nothing whatsoever altered therein." Another: "In the case of those resident in other parts of the world it shall be excommunication 'latae sententiae' and all other penalties at Our discretion ..." Finally: "Should any person venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul." In the light of the foregoing: 1) Can an ancient papal bull be amended, changed, modified, abrogated, etc., by future popes? If yes, then what are the conditions? 2) Is the Mass of Pope Paul VI licit and valid? -- A.D., Carindale, Australia A: A papal bull (from "bolla," the leaden seal attached to the document) is a solemn instrument that popes use for various questions such as doctrinal decisions, canonizations, disciplinary questions, jubilees and the like. Only occasionally have they been used for the liturgy. A bull's influence on later popes depends on the nature of its content and not the legal force of the document as such. Thus a bull such as "Ineffabilis Deus" through which Blessed Pius IX defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1854 is a definitive and irreformable act. Other bulls may contain a mixture of doctrinal and disciplinary matters. An example would be Pius IV's 1564 document "Dominici Gregis Custodiae" containing the rules for forbidding books, among which was the norm that reading a translation of the Old Testament was restricted to learned and pious men with permission from the bishop. Such norms are evidently tied to the circumstances of time and place and may be adjusted, attenuated or abrogated by future popes as situations change. St. Pius V's bull "Quo Primum" is above all a legal document although it also contains some doctrinal elements. As such it is not intended to be definitive in the same way as a doctrinal definition would be and would not bind St. Pius V himself or future popes if they decided to further fine-tune the missal. The saintly Pope's concern was to ensure as much unity as possible for the liturgy in a time when such unity was sorely needed. Even so, the same bull contains a clause exempting any Church which had its own ordo more than 200 years old. Many local Churches could have availed of this concession but most preferred to adopt the new missal for practical reasons. Some religious orders and some dioceses such as Lyon in France and Milan in Italy did opt to legitimately maintain their own rite. Thus expressions such as "it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than that of this Missal published by Us" cannot be interpreted in an absolutely literal sense. Likewise, legal expressions such as "which shall have the force of law in perpetuity, We order and enjoin under pain of Our displeasure that nothing be added to Our newly published Missal, nothing omitted therefrom, and nothing whatsoever altered therein" cannot be literally interpreted as binding on possible later actions of Pope St. Pius V or upon his successors. The strictures fall only upon those who act without due authority. If it were otherwise, then Pope St. Pius V would have excommunicated himself a couple of years after publishing "Quo Primum" when he added the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary to the missal following the Battle of Lepanto in 1571, not to mention Pope Clement XI who canonized Pius V in 1712, thus altering the missal. Among the many other Popes who would have thus incurred "the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul" would have been St. Pius X for reforming the calendar, Pius XI who added the first new preface in centuries for the feast of Christ the King, Pius XII for completely revamping the rites of Holy Week as well as simplifying the rubrics, and Blessed John XXIII for adding St. Joseph's name to the Roman Canon. Certainly, the reform undertaken under the Servant of God Pope Paul VI ranged more widely than anything done under earlier Popes since St. Pius V. But Paul VI acted with the same papal authority as all of them. As the Roman proverb goes: "Popes die, the Pope never." Each individual pontiff -- saint or sinner though he be -- holds the same authority, granted by Christ, to bind and loose, forgive or retain, so that the Lord's flock may be fed through the centuries. It is for this reason that, except in matters of faith and morals, a pope's disciplinary decrees in matters such as the non-essential elements of liturgical rites are never "set in stone" and can be changed by a subsequent Supreme Pontiff whenever he believes that the duty of feeding Christ's flock requires it. Finally, the answer to the second question should be already clear, the so-called Mass of Paul VI is both valid and licid. "I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."
[Ratzinger:"Salt of the Earth"] ![]() May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world! |
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ProDeoetPatria |
Is it valid? | #33 | ||
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OK, so one Pope says don't change it, another Pope changes it. Fine.
The other argument Traditional Catholics (is there any other kind?) use is the one explained in this web site:
It says all sacraments have matter and form, and the form in this one (Holy Eucharist) is the words of consecration.
The Church teaches that both the matter and form of any Sacrament must signify what the Sacrament effects.
They changed it to "for all" - it's not so much that it WAS changed - but that the words "for all" don't signify what the sacrament effects, and therefore, says they, it's not valid. And the Council of Trent specifically explains why it must be "for many" and not "for all" - because not "all" sinners would receive the benefit of the shedding of His blood: "With great propriety, therefore, were the words, 'for all,' not used, because here (in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist) the fruit of the
Passion is alone spoken of, and to the elect only did His Passion bring the fruit of salvation."
I'm surprised, after reading 4 pages of this, that nobody has mentioned this essential issue regarding the validity of the N.O. Mass. |
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