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Welcome to The Pope Benedict XVI Forum
The Pope Benedict XVI Fan Club invites your participation in our open, yet civil and (hopefully) respectful discussion of topics by and about Pope Benedict XVI and general issues in Catholic faith & theology. Members, please acquaint yourself with our FORUM RULES -- failure to abide by the rules will result in warnings from the moderator and possible expulsion by the management. |
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blostopher |
Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid? |
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This topic is devoted to the specific question: "Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?" Why or why not?
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semperidem |
Valid? | #1 | ||
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Undoubtedly the Novus Ordo is Valid. Everyone from Michael Davies on down accepts this proposition. However, being valid, can it still be hazardous to our souls? Having the choice of a well celebrated Mass of either rite, which SHOULD one choose? And, since no one ever leaves humming the sermon, could the Holy Father's call to an Examination of Conscience be taken as a sign of the demise of the Novus Ordo?
Chris |
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ykkbob |
Question is WHAT makes it valid | #2 | ||
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I've always maintained that the validity rules are the same for both the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Latin Mass.
Valid form Valid matter Valid priest Valid intent Having said this, however, even Rome has admitted that many, if not most, of the Novus Ordo services are invalid. And this is not even taking into account the fact that the words of Consecration were purposely mistranslated from the promulgated Latin form into their various vernaculars. But, as they say, the first lie is usually the toughest. |
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semperidem |
That's quite a claim | #3 | ||
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First, let me agree with you that those criteria still govern the question of validity. Christopher's question was intended, I think, to address the question brought up by many of my confreres, about whether in fact, with all its defects, the Novus Ordo is still valid. Is a minimally valid sacrament still valid. As I said months ago, I have concluded that the Mass is in fact valid, WHEN CELEBRATED ACCORDING TO THE MIND OF THE CHURCH, objectively speaking. Can the intent of the priest render what appears to be valid otherwise? Can we rightly judge that since Father Flapdoodle or even Father Middle-of-the-road" adlibs parts of Mass that he has a defective intention? This seems quite within the realm of reasonable judgment.
Now- on to the reason I had to write so quickly to your posting. You say that Rome has admitted that some, or even many or most, Novus Ordo Masses are invalid. Can you offer some justification for this statement? Chris |
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ykkbob |
Question is WHAT makes it valid | #4 | ||
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Matter mostly, or at least I've heard. Nowadays you get at least two different versions coming out of Rome and/or your local bishop.
Fr. Flapdoodle? Do you read New Oxford Review by any chance. Good journal, or at least I think it's at least orthodox. By the way, what exactly do you mean by "when celebrated according to the mind of the church"? If one perceives, for example, that Christ INTENDED "for all" instead of "for many," then isn't he implying that he knows more than Christ? If so, then why does he even care whether it's valid or not? I see it as a much more serious issue if we take it upon ourselves to be rewriting the very words of Christ for any reason. |
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semperidem |
Validity | #5 | ||
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First, Yes, I do read the New Oxford Review. I find it a most envigorating read. We almost cancelled several years ago, but an editorial called "Down the Old Schism Trail" if memory serves, changed our minds. Like the editors I am a former episcopalian, and like them the inability of so many of our fellow Catholics to see the gathering storm (much less prepare to fight it) vexes me.
As to pro multis versus pro omnes: The Holy See felt it necessary to issue a finding (I'm sorry, the technical name escapes me, and I don't have it in front of me) that even when the formula for consecration didn't exactly square with the Latin original it should be considered valid because CDF was sufficiently convinced that it rendered what the original intended.... So it's valid objectively, but what does it tell us that such a clarification was necessary in the first place? It doesn't make an objective difference, I realize, but I make a point of speaking the Latin words at this point in Mass. I want to make sure that I have declared my intention to understand things as the Church always has. I utterly refuse to accept universalism. Holy Mother the Church has always and ubiquitously rejected same. I stand with Her. I find it horribly unsettling that a priest should go to the effort to learn 1962 rubrics and then make the Mass invalid. I can only call this shocking. Join the war effort: learn and sing chant. |
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ykkbob |
Re: Validity | #6 | ||
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The only "objective" thing I've seen from the Holy See is De Defectibus, which clearly states that any significant deviation from the words of Christ makes it invalid. The only way "pro omnibus," therefore, can be valid to me or you is if we don't see a significant deviation between "pro omnibus" or "pro multis." Therefore, therefore, it is a subjective matter, which sort of contradicts my hypothesis. Sort of confusing, to say the least, but there definitely is no certainty of the validity, is there? We wouldn't be having this discussion if it were.
Why, oh why, did they have to change the words? We both know Christ could not have possibly shed His blood for the remission of those sins who have rejected and will always reject Him. Therefore it cannot be "for all" even if some website tells me that someone in the Vatican says it is. "For all" is an obvious lie and if Christ allows the valid matter to become His Body and Blood under those circumstances, it really is because of His forgiving mercy, and not of some local commission who chose to allow the words to be misinterpreted. |
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semperidem |
Validity | #7 | ||
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I entirely agree that there is a substantial difference between pro multis and pro omnibus. I further agree that any substantial difference invalidates the sacrament. I must insist, however, that since the Latin reads "pro multis", it is unarguably valid. Furthermore, the point of the note I've mentioned [Instauratio Liturgica, dated 25 January 1974 from Ratzinger's Predecessor] should be clear enough in the following passage:
" When a vernacular translation of a sacramental formula is submitted to the Holy See for approval, it examines it carefully. When it is satisfied that it expresses the meaning intended by the Church, it approves and confirms it, stipulating, however, that it must be understood in accordance with the mind of the Church as expressed in the original Latin text." Accordingly, whenever I am in doubt about the correctness of a translated text, I look up the Latin, learn it, and recite it at the point when the deficient text appears. I do this so as to guarantee my affirmation of what the Latin says, not what the translation reads. Chris |
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harroldian |
Re: Validity | #8 | ||
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What on earth do you mean by "valid?" God is not limited by man made rites. with the need for apoogetics in the face of secularism, I rather think some correspondents are fiddling whilst rome burns.
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groovsmyth |
Re: Validity | #9 | ||
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It's pertinent because the question of validity hinges on knowing and applying truth in spirit. Secularism impinges on the sacred by seducing individuals into believing they cannot discern evil or distinguish it from good. The loss of the sense of the sacred, and the loss of the sense of sin are both products of the moral relativism of secularism.
The loss of reverence through improvisation at Mass by well meaning priests adding their individual personality has brought about the loss of faith in the Real Presence by some Catholics. That alone should be reason to look at the particulars of how the Mass is celebrated. If becoming ONE through ecumenical discourse was easy, all the fractured denominations would be in full communion. . . yesterday. The Novus Ordo has served to not only make the Liturgy look more Protestant, the net result after 40 years is that some Catholics are thinking more like Protestants in that their belief in Eucharist is becoming symbolic. God works in non-Catholic Christian communities and is present where they gather. However, we as Catholics believe that the fullness of Truth resides in the Catholic Church. The Real Presence is not a Doctrine that can be abandoned for the sake of unity. So, yes it DOES matter. |
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harroldian |
Re: Validity | #10 | ||
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Now you are not talking about validity at all but on the supposed didactic value of the Tridentine rite. As I say elsewhere , the point is not which rite but how it is celebrated. Having been to Tridentine celebrations I can say that I found the theology lacking focus because of the opaqueness of the rite. Several churches in london and elsewhere celebrate the new rite with splendour, good music and dignity. The much feted ICEL mass in London celebrated by the Brazilian ex-renegade bishop was frankly a mess and certainly did not stress the real presence as much as the aforementioned masses. The bad liturgy, which is all too common, was just as prevalant in Tridentine days.
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galantarie |
Re: Validity | #11 | ||
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Papa [Benedict XVI] says BOTH are valid...and says Mass in Both manners.
Anthony E. Clark summed it up really accurately: "Our Holy Father's [Ratzinger] views on the subject are clearly and consistently expressed in his past writings and talks.[Ratzinger insists that these ARE NOT his views, but they are the mandate of Jesus Christ himself.] He insists that the rich liturgical heritage of the Church should appear as continuity rather than rupture. And this is not just talk: in 1991, Benedict XVI celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass in Weimar, Germany, in a crowded church, which included many priests and seminarians. In 2001, while at the Fontgombault conference, Cardinal Ratzinger sang the Tridentine Latin Mass. In his preface to Franz Brieds Die heilige Liturgie, Benedict XVI wrote that, 'The Church stands and falls with the Liturgy.' The way Holy Mass is celebrated is clearly of paramount importance to our Holy Father. In his homily given during the Tridentine Mass he celebrated in the Abbey at Fontgombault, he stated: 'Let us pray to the Lord to help us to help the Church to celebrate the Liturgy well, to be truly at the feet of the Lord, to receive the gift of true life, the essential and necessary reality, for the salvation of all, the salvation of the world. Amen.' It is a prayer for all Catholics, regardless of the particular rite and Mass they participate in." Soon St. Peter's will only present the Tridintine Mass. The Novus Ordo has unfortunately been abused, so Papa would like for the last portion to be spoke/sung in Latin as was the original intention: That primarily only the readings, Homily and Intercessions should be exclusively in the native dialect....Even the Psalm should be sung [in all no more "Pop" or "Rock"], if possible in Latin! Parishes have misselettes, if they cannot understand the Latin, with which to follow along. The Priest must face East during the Consecration of the Host. And he has "put his foot down" demanding that the Holy Liturgy's abuse, and the misinterpretation of Vatican II, be stopped NOW, pronto! The "Novus ordo" was NEVER intended to be celebrated in the vernacular. That was one of the major liturgical abuses of the post concilar period, which Our Pope Bemedict, plans to re-reform. The other is his insistance that the priest, in consecrating the Host, must face the Liturgical East of the alter.: In "Feast of Faith" Ratzinger wrote: "The original meaning of what nowadays is called the priest turning his back to the people is, in fact . . . the priest and people together facing the same way in a common act of Trinitarian worship. . . . Priest and people were united in facing eastward. . . . Because of the rising sun, the East oriens was naturally both a symbol of the Resurrection . . . and a presentation of the hope of the parousia (Second Coming). He adds that the venerable and ancient practice of having a crucifix on the altar is a 'tradition of praying to Lord who is to come under the sign of the cross.' " WATCH HOW EWTN PERFORMS MASS ! ![]() ![]() Worshipping at the Feet of the Lord | By Anthony E. Clark, Ph.D. | April 28, 2005 |
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Wulfruna |
Re: Validity | #12 | ||
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I hope Papa will bring back the prayer to St Michael at the end of each Mass. This was instigated by Leo XIII because he had a vision in the 1880s in which he saw the turmoil in the church to come. After the changes to the liturgy, this prayer was dropped. At the very time which Leo foresaw would be most dangerous for the church.
I taught this prayer to my children, and one of my daughters is very fond of it. EWTN always end Mass with it. |
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harroldian |
Re: Validity | #13 | ||
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There can be no msu face east. There should be freedom to face east or west. Perfectly good theological reasons can be given to either and they are not exclusive. Similarly Latin should be encouraged but it should not be mandatory. The main thing is to encourage good music and ceremonial whatever the rite. There is still a place for the informal, although I do not like it myself; however, theose who like good music and liturgy are too often on the back foot.
don't think the Anglican church is the preserve of good liturgy. Things are often as bad. Galentarie, you do write good sense on so many issues. R. |
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galantarie |
Facing East during Consecration | #14 | ||
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"Face the people, or face God? INTRODUCTION BY JOSEPH RATZINGER" [the following are Ratzinger's words exactly
in English translation] from his foreword to U.M. Lang's Turning Towards the Lord: Orientation in Liturgical Prayer: "To the ordinary churchgoer, the two most obvious effects of the liturgical reform of the Second Vatican Council seem to be the disappearance of Latin and the turning of the altars towards the people. Those who read the relevant texts will be astonished to learn that neither is in fact found in the decrees of the Council. The use of the vernacular is certainly permitted, especially for the Liturgy of the Word, but the preceding general rule of the Council text says, 'Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites' (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 36.1). There is nothing in the Council text about turning altars towards the people; that point is raised only in postconciliar instructions. The most important directive is found in paragraph 262 of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, the General Instruction of the new Roman Missal, issued in 1969. That says, 'It is better for the main altar to be constructed away from the wall so that one can easily walk around the altar and celebrate facing the people (versus populum).' The General Instruction of the Missal issued in 2002 retained this text unaltered except for the addition of the subordinate clause, 'which is desirable wherever possible'. This was taken in many quarters as hardening the 1969 text to mean that there was now a general obligation to set up altars facing the people 'wherever possible'. This interpretation, however, was rejected by the Congregation for Divine Worship on 25 September 2000, when it declared that the word 'expedit' ('is desirable') did not imply an obligation but only made a suggestion. The physical orientation, the Congregation says, must be distinguished from the spiritual. Even if a priest celebrates versus populum, he should always be oriented versus Deum per Iesum Christum (towards God through Jesus Christ). Rites, signs, symbols, and words can never exhaust the inner reality of the mystery of salvation, For this reason the Congregation warns against one-sided and rigid positions in this debate. This is an important clarification. It sheds light on what is relative in the external symbolic forms of the liturgy and resists the fanaticisms that, unfortunately, have not been uncommon in the controversies of the last forty years. At the same time it highlights the internal direction of liturgical action, which can never be expressed in its totality by external forms. This internal direction is the same for priest and people, towards the Lord-towards the Father through Christ in the Holy Spirit. The Congregation's response should thus make for a new, more relaxed discussion, in which we can search for the best ways of putting into practice the mystery of salvation. The quest is to be achieved, not by condemning one another, but by carefully listening to each other and, even more importantly, listening to the internal guidance of the liturgy itself. The labelling of positions as 'preconciiiar', 'reactionary', and 'conservative', or as 'progressive' and 'alien to the faith' achieves nothing; what is needed is a new mutual openness in the search for the best realisation of the memorial of Christ. This small book by Uwe Michael Lang, a member of the London Oratory, studies the direction of liturgical prayer from a historical, theological, and pastoral point of view. At a propitious moment, as it seems to me, this book resumes a debate that, despite appearances to the contrary, has never really gone away, not even after the Second Vatican Council. The Innsbruck liturgist Josef Andreas Jungmann, one of the architects of the Council's Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, was from the, very beginning resolutely opposed to the polemical catchphrase that previously the priest celebrated 'with his back to the people'; he emphasised that what was at issue was not the priest turning away from the people, but, on the contrary, his facing the same direction as the people. The Liturgy of the Word has the character of proclamation and dialogue, to which address and response can rightly belong. But in the Liturgy of the Eucharist the priest leads the people in prayer and is turned, together with the people, towards the Lord. For this reason, Jungmann argued, the common direction of priest and people is intrinsically fitting and proper to the liturgical action. Louis Bouyer (like Jungmann, one of the Council's leading liturgists) and Klaus Gainber have each in his own way taken up the same question. Despite their great reputations, they were unable to make their voices heard at first, so strong was the tendency to stress the communality of the liturgical celebration and to regard therefore the face-to-face position of priest and people as absolutely necessary. More recently the atmosphere has become more relaxed so that it is possible to raise the kind of questions asked by Jungmann, Bouyer, and Gamber without at once being suspected of anti-conciliar sentiments. Historical research has made the controversy less partisan, and among the faithful there is an increasing sense of the problems inherent in an arrangement that hardly shows the liturgy to be open to the things that are above and to the world to come. In this situation, Lang's delightfully objective and wholly unpolemical book is a valuable guide. Without claiming to offer major new insights, he carefully presents the results of recent research and provides the material necessary for making an informed judgment. The book is especially valuable in showing the contribution made by the Church of England to this question and in giving, also, due consideration to the part played by the Oxford Movement in the nineteenth century (in which the conversion of John Henry Newman matured). It is from such historical evidence that the author elicits the theological answers that he proposes, and I hope that the book, the work of a young scholar, will help the struggle-necessary in every generationfor the right understanding and worthy celebration of the sacred liturgy. I wish the book a wide and attentive readership. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger" ![]() ![]() THAT WAS JOSEPH RATZINGER IN WEIMER, 1999, CELEBRATING THE TRIDINTINE MASS |
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galantarie |
Re: Facing East during Consecration | #15 | ||
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Pius V's Latin Mass Scheduled at Youth Day
Members of Juventutem to Participate ROME, JULY 21, 2005 (Zenit.org).- At least 3,000 youths and 60 priests of a group supportive of the Latin Mass of Pope Pius V plan to attend World Youth Day in Cologne, an official says. Armand de Malleray, of St. Peter's Fraternity, who is delegate general of the Juventutem association, announced the news to ZENIT. The first Juventutem group was made up of followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who met in Brazil. For the past three years, Juventutem has been in full communion with the Church of Rome. Its members will attend the Aug. 21 Mass presided over by Benedict XVI. In the preceding days, at 7:30 a.m. the Juventutem group will attend a Mass celebrated in Latin in the old rite, in the Church of St. Antonius in Duesseldorf, which, together with Bonn and Cologne, is one of the three areas in which World Youth Day events will be held. The church was assigned to them by the Pontifical Council for the Laity with the approval of Cardinal Joachim Meisner of Cologne. Three cardinals and eight bishops will preside at vespers or lead times of prayer and reflection which Juventutem members will attend. De Malleray added that Juventutem's objective for World Youth Day is to "get to know one another, knowing that we have a common tradition within Holy Mother Church." In July's "Inside the Vatican", Juventutem explains further: "Pope Benedict knows us even better, or rather more personally, having acted as our quasi 'Cardinal Protector' since the beginning of the 'Ecclesia Dei' movement in 1988. As a former Archbishop of Munich in Bavaria, he installed in his native region the main 'Ecclesia Dei' institute, the 'Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter'. He visited their motherhouse 18 months later when he traveled there to offer a Pontifical High Mass in the ancient Roman rite and preach on Easter Sunday 1990. He favored their Cannonical Errection of Pontifical Rite less than two months after their foundation. On October 24, 1994, celebrating in Rome the 10th anniversary of the moto proprio 'Ecclesia Dei', before the Pope blessed us all in front of St. Peter's Bassilica, Cardinal Ratzinger thus addressed us: Quote: Ten years after the publication of the moto proprio 'Ecclesia Dei', how does the account stand? Above all, I think it is an opportunity to show our gratitude and give thanks. The different communities born from this pontifical document, have given the Church a great number of priestly and religious vocations, zealous, joyful and profoundly united to the Pope, to serve the gospel at this era in history, our era. Through them many faithful have been confirmed in their joy to be able to live the liturgy and their love for the Church. _________________________________ Our dear Holy Father Benedict knows our loyalty to the See of Peter, our devotion to his sacred person and our trust in his guidance of all the Church. For sure we are among his children." |
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galantarie |
Re: Facing East during Consecration | #16 | ||
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Here is an excellent answer from I blog I recently read:
"The Church preserves the local authority for a Bishop to make decisions for his Flock. All Bishops enjoyed this, and answered to God, not the flock, for the results. If the Tridentine Mass was used by a Sede group claiming the Novus Ordo is invalid, then the Bishop may seek to not permit the Tridentine Mass, forcing the Doctrine of the Primacy of Peter that the Novus Ordo is equally valid. The normative Mass of the Church is the Normative Mass, and variations on that standard will have to be approved by the Bishop and even at that, serious abuses of the Mass may get the attention of Rome. Each Catholic has the right to a valid Mass, and those standards are set. Validity is met by all the rites of the Church, but even stricter each Catholic has the right to a licit Mass as well. A Priest is always allowed to celebrate Mass, but he operates licitly only by virtue of his incardination by a Bishop. A Priest may not hear confessions and give absolution validly, or perform valid Marriages if he is not incardinated. No Priest can claim to be incardinated, if he claims an excommunicated Bishop, or no Bishop, is his Bishop. The Indult allows a Bishop to alter the form of the normal Mass if it is good for his flock. He permits a Priest who may say Mass anytime, to use an older Missal, and not the normal approved missal." May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world!
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papistseminarian |
Re: Facing East during Consecration | #17 | ||
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Facing east is a great idea. In "The Spiritual Vision of Benedict XVI, Let God's Light Shine" the Holy Father talks about why it is important to face east. In the new GIRM one part mentions that the priest turns and faces the people and then turns back toward the altar. The Novus Ordo does not have to be said facing the people, or in the vulgate. If the mass is celebrated corectly and prayerfully it is very beautiful. The question here should not be wheter or not the Novus Ordo is valid, because it is a valid sacrament, we are not dicussing liturgical abuses which are found numerously in the Trid rite as well. THE TRUE QUESTION IS WHETER OR NOT THE PEOPLE ASKING THIS QUESTION ARE TRUELY CATHOLIC, AND IS THEIR FAITH THAT SHALLOW AS TO NOT TRUST IN THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE DOGMATIC ECUMENICAL COUNCIL OF VATICAN II.
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LQuidFire |
Re: Facing East during Consecration | #18 | ||
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I will leave aside the question whether it is valid or not, since I didn't do any research to that. Due to that I accept it to be valid of course, but possibly harmfull for the failthfull.
Now about your capital remark, papistseminarian: I do trust the Holy Spirit. Of course. But the problem about Vaticanum II is that it was NOT a dogmatic council, but a pastoral one. This means that the coucil was not intended to 'establish' dogma's or give binding statements about the cathoilic faith. The gift and help of the Holy Spirit was, on purpose (by not creating a dogmatic council), not called upon the council. And now we know that, it is not surprising that things said on Vaticanum II must not always be 100% in harmony with what the Church has taught before. I hope this makes some sense to you! |
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papistseminarian |
Re: Facing East during Consecration | #19 | ||
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That remark "And now we know that, it is not surprising that things said on Vaticanum II must not always be 100% in harmony with what the Church has taught before" is outrageous. VII was dogmatic, I am in seminary and have read the documents, and read responses to uninformed claims like yours saying it is dogmatic. Do not even attempt to think that VII is not in harmony with what the Church has taught. We call that HERESEY.
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Wulfruna |
Re: Facing East during Consecration | #20 | ||
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seminarian, perhaps you can clarify something for me. I read recently that Vat 2 was intended as a 'pastoral' council and does not claim the full weight of the Magisterium, so it can be weighed up in the light of previous councils which do. Is this so?
I can't now find the webpage, but it's at a Fatima site which although loyal to B16 does seem to have some pretty trad ideas - |
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