Here are two eloquent photos; you should go to the site to see the rest.
Main altar smashed.
This is a sight to make one weep.
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The Pope Benedict XVI Fan Club invites your participation in our open, yet civil and (hopefully) respectful discussion of topics by and about Pope Benedict XVI and general issues in Catholic faith & theology. Members, please acquaint yourself with our FORUM RULES -- failure to abide by the rules will result in warnings from the moderator and possible expulsion by the management. |
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rcesq |
The Future of the Church in the West? | #101 | ||
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Catholic Church Conservation has posted a link to a
heartbreaking series of photographs taken by "phil d" that are posted on phil's Myspace webpage. They are of Mount St. Mary's (the Famine
Church) in Leeds. Apparently the diocese may have sold the property. If it did, the diocese did not remove fixtures such as the altar, stained glass windows,
tombstones, statuary, etc. The photos of the devastation should serve as a dire warning about the consequences of the loss of the Faith in Western Europe.
Seeing these pictures makes me mourn not just for the destruction of a beautiful building, but also for the earlier generations of Catholics who worked long
and hard to erect such a church which they intended to be for the greater glory of God.
Here are two eloquent photos; you should go to the site to see the rest.
Main altar smashed.
This is a sight to make one weep. |
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Unicorn |
The Future of the Church in the West? | #102 | ||
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Rcesq, I tried the link -- although the Myspace page loaded, the photos did not. Maybe it's just as well ... I
read the captions, and when I got to:
The alter had been smashed by mindless morons. Many of the hands and faces on the statues had been broken off. my eyes began to sting ... I don't think I can bear to look at those photos. I just can't. Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI |
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rcesq |
Sharing the Faith | #103 | ||
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Benodette: Thanks for this insightful Commonwealth article by a younger priest. What he says is true not only for clergy but also, I
think, for all Catholics. One of the features of this forum that I find particularly interesting is to read the diversity of views that exist within the
Catholic community -- a diversity that often seems to arise out of generational differences. Because it appears that Catholics (at least in the U.S.)
self-select the kind of Church community to which they belong (usually depending on which type of Sunday Mass they attend), it's rare to share genuine
encounters with those who are not members of "your" community. Thus, those who go to the Youth/folk mass often don't mingle with those who go to
the Novus Ordo with traditional hymns. They certainly have little or no exposure to those who recall and love pre-conciliar liturgies. And only if you have
children or teens in your family do you learn how they view the Church and its rites. Elsewhere, you've asked about the appeal of the new
"movements." It might be that a desire to look beyond the boundaries of a parish is part of the motivation to join a movement. And the desire to
share your insights and experiences of being Catholic, as well as getting encouragement in your journey of faith. In a way, this fanclub is a kind of
"movement" and a kind of community that the Commonweal article wishes would exist among clergy.
Last Edited By: rcesq 05/21/08 00:04:47.
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Unicorn |
Sharing the faith | #104 | ||
In a way, this fanclub is a kind of "movement" and a kind of community that the Commonweal article wishes would exist among clergy. I daresay, Rcesq, that it is the kind of community I wish would exist not only among the clergy, but among the "greater Church" itself. Many a time there have been some disagreements on the Forum, particularly on the Clothing and Liturgy thread, and while the discussions have become somewhat passionate, I am grateful that we have all made -- and continue to make -- an effort to truly understand each other. One can hear a whisper of wistfulness in the Commonweal article, and a sorrow that among men who are supposed to be "brothers" in a very unique sense, there is discord, misunderstanding and, to a certain degree, animosity. It is very sad indeed. As many of you know, I belong to the post-Vatican II generation, and I am trying my best to fully understand the arguments of both sides of the "Conciliar" divide, if I may call it that. There have been voices on the Forum from both sides, and I am thankful that we have all been able to "argue" our "cases" with charity and courteousness. To be honest, I much prefer to read the opinions and comments here than on other websites, because I invariably find the most uncharitable comments and opinions from both sides on "outside" Forums, websites and "comboxes", and it is heartbreaking to read the insults that hurled back and forth, and all, supposedly, in the name of the Catholic faith. How are the wounds on both sides to be healed, if each side seems to think of the other as cannon fodder? The voice of this Forum may not be as loud as that of other websites, but I like to think that our voice is, nonetheless, a voice of charity and graciousness, and above all, a voice of compassion and understanding, for both the pre- and post-Vatican II generations. In the end, we are all members of the pilgrim Church, and all of us are fellow travelers on the journey towards God. Let us hope that through our example on the Forum of civility, charity and courteousness of debate and discussion, we can help to make such a pilgrimage one of hope and compassion for our fellow travelers -- and yes, that includes our brethren from other Churches, and other faiths. EDIT: I know this may sound rather ignorant of me, but what is a "Youth / Folk" Mass? Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI
Last Edited By: Unicorn 05/21/08 02:27:55.
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Benodette |
Sharing the Faith | #105 | ||
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I am also glad that we are able to have such a lively exchange of views on this forum and that the people who contribute have the attention span and the
interest to try and absorb different points of view. I have certainly discovered many things as a result of the discussions here.
Being able to probe, question and engage in dialogue on aspects of the Faith is stimulating and valuable. Some of our most lively discussions in recent months have been on the Liturgy. I don't think any of us are liturgists, but liturgical changes affect all of us to a greater or lesser extent. Being able to discuss those changes with civility and intelligence has been very enlightening for me. Thank heaven we do not feel here that we must be muzzled by the attitude that if the Pope does it, wears it, or eats it, then it must be right and any discussion is beyond the pale. This forum has matured and I hope we are the better for it. Rcesq - the state of that church in Leeds is a disgrace. I am surprised that it has been vandalised in that way. There is a very buoyant market for architectural salvage and I am amazed it has not been carefully stripped by one of the salvage companies. |
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Benodette |
Cherie: 'I can use contraception AND be a good Catholic girl' | #106 | ||
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Cherie Blair revealed in her newly published memoirs that she was too embarrassed to take her "contraceptive equipment" on a visit to the Queen
at Balmoral because the maids and valets unpack the luggage. Too much information, but the press have jumped on this rather tacky titbit.
Daily Mail - Cherie Blair today claimed she could still be a "good Catholic girl" despite admitting to using contraception. She appeared to challenge Catholic teaching on artificial birth control as she spoke about the impact of contraception on women's lives. Mrs Blair, who made her comments in a GMTV interview with Lorraine Kelly, said the ability to control their fertility had "changed" how women
live.
Her remarks came after Ms Kelly told Mrs Blair that emails from viewers were mentioning her admission in her new book Speaking For Myself that she had not
packed her "contraceptive equipment" for a visit to Balmoral, which resulted in her pregnancy with her youngest son Leo.
"People seem to be quite shocked that perhaps a Catholic girl even uses contraception but it is really an important thing for women because one of the things about the book is about how women's lives have changed," Mrs Blair told Ms Kelly. "One of the reasons women's lives have changed is that they have been able to control their fertility, it is an important issue."
Mrs Blair's remarks came after she spoke of the 10 "fantastic" years she had enjoyed in Downing Street, a time when she had met the Queen and
two Popes.
She said meeting two Popes was a "huge thing" for a "good Catholic girl". Mrs Blair's remarks on contraception come after Pope Benedict XVI earlier this month strongly defended the 1968 Papal encyclical Humanae Vitae, the
controversial Papal document against artificial birth control.
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rcesq |
#107 | |||
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The Blairs: God loves them I'm sure, but I'm also pretty sure He must be shaking His head wondering what about the Gospel of Life and
Humanae Vitae is so hard for educated Catholics like them to understand.
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rcesq |
Excerpt from a Youth/Teen type Mass | #108 | ||
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Unicorn:� I hope you can open this video clip from Youtube.� It gives a flavor of what a Youth/Teen Mass can be like. |
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Unicorn |
#109 | |||
Cherie Blair revealed in her newly published memoirs that she was too embarrassed to take her "contraceptive equipment" on a visit to the Queen at Balmoral because the maids and valets unpack the luggage. Too much information, but the press have jumped on this rather tacky titbit. With all due respect to Mrs. Blair, that was definitely too much information, and it is definitely a tacky tidbit. I appreciate the insights that memoirs provide into a person's psychology, insights that no biographer can truly capture, but I really do think that there are some things that should be left private. One of the reasons women's lives have changed is that they have been able to control their fertility, it is an important issue. It is also an issue that is a very, very slippery slope indeed, to say the least. I wonder what sort of interpretation I should make of this, and I confess that I'm not entirely happy with the supposition that entered my head, which is that what Mrs. Blair is saying is that the ability to control one's fertility has wrought a positive change in a woman's life. Should this be interpreted to mean that children are, God forbid, an encumbrance to a woman? Hmmm ... for all Mrs. Blair's "embarrassment" at not being able to bring her "contraceptive equipment" to Balmoral, who knows, perhaps the Lord, who works in very mysterious ways indeed, used her "embarrassment" as a means through which Leo Blair would be born into the world? And, to be honest, who can say how he may, in all probability, change the world in ways that would certainly surpass his own father's accomplishments? On a separate note, I am so sorry, Rcesq, but our office servers block sites such as YouTube -- I'm very lucky that the RFC is not being blocked! But I'll try to visit an Internet cafe over the weekend, so I can see the Youth Mass video, as well as Benodette's photos. Errr ... will I be terribly shocked, though? Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI |
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rcesq |
You Tube Youth Mass vs. Traditional Latin Mass | #110 | ||
I'll try to visit an Internet cafe over the weekend, so I can see the Youth Mass video, as well as Benodette's photos.Unicorn: I wouldn't waste my money to watch the video if that's the only reason you're going to the Internet cafe. On the other hand, if you've got other reasons to sign on, a quick peek might be very enlightening for you! I recall seeing somewhere on one of the threads while I was gone a post by Mag6nideum, I believe, that featured a "liturgy" with giant puppets and a liturgical dancer. The question was asked whether I'd ever experienced such a service. Not with puppets, no. With liturgical dancers, alas, yes. Like the one in the YouTube video, yes, oh yes. But mirabile dictu, the traditional Latin Mass is now being said on Sunday afternoons in a parish run by the Discalced Carmelites not far from my home. I went last week and it was a revelation: there were about two hundred people, many of the women with mantillas or hats; the large mixed choir was made up of people under 35 and they sang Gregorian chant and Mozart beautifully; the altar servers ranged in age from 8 to 18; communion was distributed by two priests to the kneeling communicants and on the tongue (no altar rail cloth though; I guess you can't have everything); and best of all, the Mass was not hard to follow. The missalettes were like my old missal, with parallel columns featuring the Mass of the Sunday. It was High Mass, so lasted about an hour and 25 minutes. After experiencing that, I am more mystified than ever why it was deemed necessary to make such radical changes in the liturgy. I defy anyone of any sensibility at all to conclude that the You ube Youth Mass is more prayerful and has greater or better "participation" in the proper sense than the traditional Latin Mass. I shall definitely go again.
Last Edited By: rcesq 05/22/08 01:30:43.
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mag6nideum |
#111 | |||
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rcesq - I'm very happy for you that you have now the possibility to attend "Latin Mass" near your home. Keep us informed about
the music in those Masses, will you please? The priest of our parish here (his age is 66) told the RCIA class the other night that the old Mass was mostly
silent, except for the homily (and the music, I presume!) but that it was the nearest thing to heaven one could imagine. He also thought - like you - that,
paradoxically,the "participation" level of everyone in the liturgy was perhaps much higher than is currently the case.
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mag6nideum |
"Pope of Rome" on Romanus the Melodist | #112 | ||
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Josephus Flavius on the blog Byzantine, TX has an inspiring and informative post connected to Benedict XVI's GA yesterday, where he spoke of Romanum the
Melodist. I love the story of the dream Romanum had in which the Theotokos visited him.... and the results of this dream. There is a link to a radio programme
where a phrase or so of a kontakion by Romanum can be heard. Our Orthodox brothers (and sisters?) apparently still sing his hymns.
I would like to hear from Nadezda if the Orthodox Church also experience the problem of the infiltration of unworthy music in the liturgy, as we have in the Western traditions of Christianity. Nadezda, I had wanted to inquire about this before, and I hope you get to see this post of mine, otherwise I'll write to you personally, because I know you are an excellent musician. http://byztex.blogspot.com/2008/05/pope-of-rome-on-romanus-melodist.html
Last Edited By: mag6nideum 05/22/08 04:31:25.
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rcesq |
Traditional Latin Mass | #113 | ||
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Mag6nideum:
There are two (or maybe 3 or 4) forms of the traditional Latin Mass. There's "low Mass" which indeed did/does not include singing. That may be the one your parish priest was talking about. But there's also a "high Mass" celebrated by a priest and acolytes, which does include singing, including chanting by the priest. Then there's a high Mass celebrated by a bishop which includes more assistants of some type and may have even more chanting. Finally, there's a pontifical Mass which I do not recall ever attending before Vatican II, although my parents did take me to Rome when I was a child. I do remember seeing Pope Pius XII carried on the sedia in 1956 and his funeral in 1958. I'll try to take notes when I go back to the Latin Mass. |
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rcesq |
Kontakion by Romanos the Melodist | #114 | ||
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Mag6nideum:
Thanks for the link to the audio about Romanos the Melodist and the kontakion of the Nativity. Did you listen to the reading of the whole poem? It's really marvelous. Here are a few stanzas which give you the flavor of the plain language and direct, simple style that Pope Benedict mentioned. Small wonder that St. Romanos became a beloved figure in Constantinople; I certainly would be eager to hear his homilies. On the Nativity of Christ Prelude Today the Virgin gives birth to him who is above all being,
1 Bethlehem has opened Eden, come, let us see;
2 The mother's Father has willingly become her Son,
3 "High King, what have you to do with beggars?
As she spoke such words in secret
"For Balaam laid before us precisely
6 When Mary heard these amazing words,
7 "So, since they are your people, my
Child, bid them
8 Jesus the Christ and truly our God
The magi
at once hastened into the room
11 "I will tell you", Mary said to the magi,
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Benodette |
Vatican newspaper responds to U.S. journal on human dignity, science | #115 | ||
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CNS - Protecting human dignity is the only guiding principle that ensures progress in biomedical technology does not harm the
weakest humans, the Vatican newspaper said.
Using human dignity as the guiding principle for determining what is medically and scientifically ethical is not simply a Catholic approach and it is not a ruse to stop scientific progress, said the front-page article in L'Osservatore Romano. The newspaper's May 28 article, "In Defense of Human Dignity," was a response to an article dated May 28 in The New Republic, a U.S. journal, arguing that members of President George W. Bush's Council on Bioethics were using the concept of dignity, particularly in its Catholic understanding, to obstruct scientific progress and impose conservative Christian values on the nation. The journal's article, "The Stupidity of Dignity, Conservative Bioethics' Latest, Most Dangerous Ploy," was written by Steven Pinker, a professor of psychology at Harvard University in Cambridge, Mass. Pinker said the bioethics council's March report, "Human Dignity and Bioethics" -- a collection of essays by council members and invited contributors -- "should alarm anyone concerned with American biomedicine and its promise to improve human welfare." The general idea of the essays, he said, "is that even if a new technology would improve life and health and decrease suffering and waste, it might have to be rejected, or even outlawed, if it affronted human dignity. Whatever that is." Vatican newspaper responds to U.S. journal on human dignity, science |
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letmel |
Prayers from "Vultus Christi" a blog to read ! | #116 | ||
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Please read these prayers and read this blog . It does teach you how to spread the fragance of Jesus .
http://vultus.stblogs.org/2008/05/reparation_to_the_eucharistic.html
Last Edited By: letmel 06/01/08 13:47:32.
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Benodette |
Prayers from "Vultus Christi" a blog to read ! | #117 | ||
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Mant thanks for the link Letmel. This is a refreshing change from the conflicts we encounter elsewhere.
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rcesq |
High Mass on the Third Sunday after Pentecost | #118 | ||
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rcesq - I'm very happy for you that you have now the possibility to attend "Latin Mass" near your home. Keep us informed about the music in those Masses, will you please? Mag6nideum:
The Kyrie eleison was sung by female voices.
Collect in commemoration of the Sacred Heart: Deus qui nobis in Corde Filii tui. Mixed choir.
Alleluia: Ps. 7, 12. Deus, iudex iustus (not
available) Offertorium: Ps. 9, 11.12.13 Sperent in te omnes (1m40s - 793 kb) Hymn: Ave Maria. First part, male choir; second part, female choir, repeats polyphonic, male and female voices. Beautiful! Secreto: Ps. 24, 16.18 et 1-2 Respice in me (1m25s - 676 kb) Male voices Commemoration of the Octave of the Sacred Heart: Respice quaseumus, Domine. Male voices. Agnus Dei: alternating male/female voices Communio: vel Lc. 15, 10 Dico vobis: Gaudium (35.9s - 563 kb)
Postcommunio: Sancta tua nos, Domine. Male voices Commemoration of the Sacred Heart: Praebeat nobis, Domine Jesu. Male Voices. Recessional: Salve
Regina (1m33.7s - 729 kb) Choir & congregation
I really urge all forum members who have the opportunity to seek out a Tridentine High Mass. Before you go, make sure there are missals so you can follow along, otherwise it will be more befuddling than mysterious. And try to find out if there's a celebrant and choir who sing decently. You don't need professionals; just folks who can find and hold a note. And if you've never attended such a Mass, don't go just once; try it at least twice and see what you think.
Last Edited By: rcesq 06/01/08 18:21:17.
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rcesq |
Statistical Data Showing Divergence Between Doctrine and Beliefs | #119 | ||
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Providentially, this news article provides some hard data in response to the list of "debated" articles of faith that I posted in the Papal clothing and liturgical practices
thread:
One tough challenge that Catholic shepherds face, Pope Benedict XVI said this past Lent, is that their flocks live in an age "in which the loss of the sense of sin is unfortunately becoming increasingly more widespread." | ||||