Papal clothing and liturgical practices

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Benodette	Red and Gold for Pentecost	#941	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 5369 05/11/08 03:40:11	Reuters The Pope wore a new red chasuble for the Feast of Pentecost. Made of a rich and heavy red and gold brocade it was worn over a red dalmatic. Reuters He looked rather hot under the lights. AFP/Getty Because this heavy-looking chasuble is in the Baroque style, Father Z is again claiming that the Pope is making a statement through his vestments. He has only used this style twice - the other occasion was on Ash Wednesday. Benedict XVI's Pentecost Sunday: again a lesson through vestments It seems he tripped up mounting the steps to the throne. Last Edited By: Benodette 05/11/08 10:48:09. Edited 1 time.
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Unicorn	Red and Gold for Pentecost	#942	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1298 05/11/08 05:40:47	Thank you for the photos, Benodette. The red of this chasuble looks much better in the photos than on television. He looked rather hot under the lights. Povero Papa ... it's not surprising that he would feel rather uncomfortable. I counted five -- yes, five! -- layers of clothing! Take a look at his right hand in the first photo; from all the sleeves that can be seen, one can count all the clothing he's wearing under that dalmatic and chasuble: a long-sleeved white shirt, his white cassock, his alb. With the two red vestments, that makes five layers of clothing on the poor man! And under hot lights! It seems he tripped up mounting the steps to the throne. He did indeed, Benodette. AP / Plinio Lepri On television, it happened when the camera was in a "long-shot" - one could see the red of the chasuble as Il Papa tripped, then the white of the surplices of Guido Marini and the Asst. MC as they rushed to Il Papa's aid. Although I disapprove of so many layers of clothing on Il Papa, owing to the heat, this is one instance when I was rather grateful that all those layers cushioned his knees somewhat. Thank goodness he was fine afterwards, although I must say that when I saw him trip, I nearly leaped out of my chair in alarm. I am inclined to think that he may have slipped on the hem of his alb as he was placing his foot on the first step of the dais on which the chair is placed. The steps look "carpeted", which would mean that they are most definitely not that slippery. I really hope that this incident will prompt some reconsideration of the wisdom of using these lace albs, which look to be slightly longer than the simpler albs that Il Papa used during Arch. Marini's tenure as MC. Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI Last Edited By: Unicorn 05/12/08 05:57:07. Edited 2 times.
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Benodette	Red and Gold for Pentecost	#943	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 5375 05/12/08 06:16:07	this is one instance when I was rather grateful that all those layers cushioned his knees somewhat. Unicorn that chasuble is so thick it seems to be padded. In some pictures the Pope looks as if he is enveloped in a sleeping bag. AFP Getty
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Benodette	Red and Gold on a Headless Priest	#944	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 5380 05/13/08 02:09:26	This chasuble appeared on the Tridentinum site just before Pentecost. The fabric is different but it is rather similar to the Pentecostal sleeping bag worn by the Pope last Sunday. I wonder why they removed the head of the priest in the picture - it looks rather spooky. Model: Renaissance-style Chasuble (so called "Borromea" from the name of St. Charles Borromeo) More pictures
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Tridentinum		#945	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1 05/13/08 05:15:18	I'm happy to read such comments about the work of Tridentinum for the Sacred Liturgy. You are right: the shape of the chasuble of the Pope is exactly the Cuoridoro: we find the original model at the church of Santa Maria della Pietà in Bologna, where is a chasuble of St. Charles Borromeo. The fabric of the vestment worn by His Holiness is a silk brocaded lampas with the heraldic emblems of Pope Leo X: there is a sample of that brocaded lampas at the church of the Annunziata in Florence. The arms of the chasuble and the dalmatics is taken from the model of the basement of the Bernini's baldacchino, just changing the coat of Pope Barberini with Benedict's one. As you may see, we always use the tiara: the first time for the First Vespers of Advent, then for Ash Wednesday, for Thursday before Palm Sunday and finally for Pentecost. Now we are preparing other fabrics, not for the Pope, but just to increase our catalogue: http://www.tridentinum.com/cat-ou-nicolaalloni.htm and http://www.tridentinum.com/cat-ou-fiere.htm May I ask you your help? I'm looking for detailed pictures of some byzantine and gothic-style vestments, such as the St. Bernard of Hildesheim chasuble, as well as patterns of ancient fabrics to reproduce. If you have suggestions of pictures etc, please do not hesitate to send me an email at info@tridentinum.com Thanks a lot for your kind cooperation! Pietro Siffi
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Tridentinum		#946	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 2 05/13/08 05:16:44	Benodette wrote: This chasuble appeared on the Tridentinum site just before Pentecost. The fabric is different but it is rather similar to the Pentecostal sleeping bag worn by the Pope last Sunday. I wonder why they removed the head of the priest in the picture - it looks rather spooky. ...we will change these pictures within the end of the week
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Benodette	Red and Gold for Pentecost	#947	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 5386 05/13/08 09:12:49	Thank you Tridentinum for your response. So this is the chasuble made from the Medici fabric. Did your firm also make the chasuble of red and gold rose-patterned brocade which the Pope wore at the Mass for Pope John Paul II? Perhaps you can answer a question which some of us are rather puzzled about. Why do you use the tiara when the official Coat of Arms of Pope Benedict XVI has a mitre? Your fabrics are lush and gorgeous, and the violet cope is beautiful, but the Coat of Arms was a surprise. Please, do put the head back on the priest. He looks has if he has just walked in from the guillotine.
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Alagorus		#948	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1 05/13/08 11:03:02	Vestments from Tridentinum are beautiful. What can we expect in the future?
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Tridentinum		#949	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 3 05/13/08 12:37:04	Benodette wrote: Thank you Tridentinum for your response. So this is the chasuble made from the Medici fabric. Did your firm also make the chasuble of red and gold rose-patterned brocade which the Pope wore at the Mass for Pope John Paul II? Perhaps you can answer a question which some of us are rather puzzled about. Why do you use the tiara when the official Coat of Arms of Pope Benedict XVI has a mitre? Your fabrics are lush and gorgeous, and the violet cope is beautiful, but the Coat of Arms was a surprise. We suggested to use the tiara just for coherence with the style of the vestments. But we find a very good appreciation about it, and I personally think the changement of the tiara with the mitre has been made by Card. Montezemolo and published to the press before the Pope's approval...We do not made the chasuble of red and gold rose-patterned brocade for the Mass of Pope John Paul II: the style of that vestment is totally different...
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Benodette	Pope's Processional Cross	#950	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 5389 05/14/08 09:38:50	Alessandra Benedetti From Zenit - Answered by Legionary of Christ Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university. Q: I noticed that the Holy Father is carrying a new processional cross. Can you tell us about that new cross and perhaps why the Holy Father made the decision to carry this new cross rather than the one that he has carried for the past several years -- the same one that Pope John Paul II carried? Are there norms and guidelines for what type of shepherd's staff the Holy Father can carry? -- B.D., Columbia City, Indiana A: I too have noticed this new pastoral cross used by Benedict XVI. While I have no particular insights into the Holy Father's mind, I doubt that we need to try to dig out profound theological motives. The most probable reason is that he found this cross more to his taste than the other one. The slightly abstract pastoral staff that John Paul II carried all over the world was first designed for Pope Paul VI, a connoisseur and promoter of modern sacred art. The Italian Pope established a modern arts gallery in the Vatican Museums and commissioned the huge Risen Christ bronze sculpture in the Paul VI audience hall. Before the conciliar reform the use of a crosier or pastoral staff was almost unknown in papal liturgies. This was because the practice of assigning the pastoral staff to a bishop did not originate in Rome but, probably, in Spain during the seventh century from whence it spread to the rest of Europe. The popes never adopted the use of the crosier. Even today the new rite for installing a pope foresees the imposition of the pallium and placing of the Fisherman's Ring, but not the handing over of the pastoral staff.... The cross that Benedict XVI has been using belonged originally to Pope Blessed Pius IX and is much lighter than it looks. This is another plus, considering Benedict XVI's age. There is no particular law that would oblige the Holy Father to choose one design of cross over another, and it is entirely a question of pontifical artistic sensibility. Pope's Processional Cross Thanks again Tridentinum for responding. So did the Pope approved the use of the tiara rather than the mitre? Do you think he now regrets substituting the mitre? Can you throw any light of the use of the Pius IX Staff? Is it because it looks better with the more traditional vestments which your firm has provided for the Pope?
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Unicorn		#951	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1304 05/14/08 23:50:28	Buon giorno, Signor Siffi, e grazie mille per la vostra risposta. (I hope that I have expressed myself correctly in the Italian language, which I am trying to learn.) May I wish you a rather belated welcome to our little Forum? I must say that the shade of red used for the Pentecost chasuble is quite elegant, and is in fact, my favorite shade of red. However, I hope you will not mind if I echo Benodette's inquiry: did His Holiness approve of the use of the tiara, in place of the mitre, for this particular chasuble? I ask this because I noticed that during his Pastoral Visit to the United States, the coat-of-arms that appeared on one of the chairs that was specially made for him still makes use of the mitre. Grazie, signore, and we look forward to your reply. Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI
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rcesq		#952	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1532 05/15/08 02:48:11 Moderator	If I read the Tridentinum explanation about the tiara/mitre substitution correctly, the suggestion seems to be that Cardinal Montemozolo made the swap and presented it to the press before newly elected Joseph Ratzinger could say yea or nay. In other words, it was the same kind of fait accompli as the pallium and the ring. And about the papal staff we have heard from two people (Msgr. Marini and Fr. Edward McNamara) that the Pius IX one is lighter than the Paul VI one and, thus, easier for Pope Benedict XVI to handle. Now, can anyone begrudge the Pope a little more ease in carrying out his duties? Finally, copebearing seems to be catching on. Cardinal Roger Mahony at Benediction in Lourdes with Order of Malta My apologies for the fuzzy picture; it's a shot of the enormous screens that hang in the 25,000 seat underground St. Pius X basilica. Last Edited By: rcesq 05/15/08 02:55:58. Edited 1 time.
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Tridentinum		#953	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 4 05/15/08 05:23:43	Tridentinum wrote: Benodette wrote: Thank you Tridentinum for your response. So this is the chasuble made from the Medici fabric. Did your firm also make the chasuble of red and gold rose-patterned brocade which the Pope wore at the Mass for Pope John Paul II? Perhaps you can answer a question which some of us are rather puzzled about. Why do you use the tiara when the official Coat of Arms of Pope Benedict XVI has a mitre? Your fabrics are lush and gorgeous, and the violet cope is beautiful, but the Coat of Arms was a surprise. [...] Misunderstanding: I thought you was talking about the modern chasuble and - as I said - we didn't make it. As for the cope, it's from the Papal Treasury...
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Tridentinum		#954	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 5 05/15/08 05:32:41	Benodette wrote: I. Did the Pope approved the use of the tiara rather than the mitre? II. Do you think he now regrets substituting the mitre? III. Can you throw any light of the use of the Pius IX Staff? IV. Is it because it looks better with the more traditional vestments which your firm has provided for the Pope? Ad primum: affirmative. Ad secundum: censendum est Pontificem libenter usum tiarae non solum tolleravisse, verum etiam approbavisse. Ad tertium: ratio certe pondus fuit, sed etiam decor et pulchritudo ferulae Pii Pp. IX Ad quartum: affirmative.
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Tridentinum		#955	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 6 05/15/08 05:42:26	Unicorn wrote: [...] I ask this because I noticed that during his Pastoral Visit to the United States, the coat-of-arms that appeared on one of the chairs that was specially made for him still makes use of the mitre. The choice is up to the donor and it's always approved (or rejected) by the Master of Ceremonies. We always - and only - used the tiara in making our embroidered arms. If the tailor and the donor are less conservative - or just shy - the tiara disappears and you see again the bishop mitre, following the usual model. I'm personally not favourable to the mitre, because I consider it a mere episcopal sign, since the Sovoreign Pontiff is the supreme authority of the Church and the unique depositary of papal infallibility, and not a primus inter pares, as conciliarists and collegialists say.
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Benodette	A Necklace for the Pope	#956	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 5391 05/15/08 13:01:15	Thanks for the clarification Tridentinum. I know many people were dismayed by the removal of the tiara, but the Pope is, after all, Bishop of Rome and Universal Pastor, so there is an argument for the mitre too. Actually I did mean the modern red and gold chasuble. It is very different from the rich silks your firm uses. I read that you made a cope from the same Medici fabric. Is that so? Perhaps we will see it next month. Here is something different - a flower necklace. What a sweet gift and what a pity it had to be removed so soon. AFP/Getty
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Tridentinum		#957	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 7 05/16/08 09:00:17	...as you may understand, we are not allowed to anticipate what His Holiness will wear for next ceremonies. Just be patient and you will see: the next papal celebration in red is not so far
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Tridentinum		#958	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 8 05/16/08 09:46:26	Pictures without head have been modified! http://www.tridentinum.com/cat-ou-borromea-cuoridoro.htm
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rcesq	Chasuble Models	#959	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1535 05/16/08 18:19:24 Moderator	Tridentinum: Thank you for joining the forum. It's great to be able to hear about the Pope's new vestments from the horse's mouth. As you can see, fans of Pope Benedict have been speculating about Tridentinum's work here and elsewhere in the blogosphere. Now, you might begin to regret joining when you start reading all our commentary, but here goes anyway. Your chasuble models, while improved a little with the block heads and wooden hands, still look really really strange because they have no feet. Is there no gentleman who would agree to be photographed wearing the vestments for your website? I recall when I was in Rome two years ago that there were calendars featuring some extremely handsome priests or seminarians, some of whom surely wouldn't mind making some pocket money as a model. In exchange for the mild criticism of your vestment displays, as you requested, here are a few samples of antique vestments that can be found in museum collections: With the fleur de lys, this would be nice for the feast of St. Louis of France or St. Joan of Arc or maybe a Marian feastday. Opus Anglicanum (Chasuble), late 15th century -- English --the Cloisters Collection, 1982 (1982.432) The Baptism of Christ by St. John: Based on a fresco by Andrea del Sarto--Italian, 1486-1530 Italy--Art Museum of Chicago A thoughtful gift for the pianist Pope: an orchestra of angels, including a pair of angels on harmoniums: Dalmatic and Humeral Veil, late 17th-early 18th century--Art Museum of Chicago In case the Pope ever goes back to Mariazell and they want him to wear blue again: France or Italy--Chasuble, Stole, and Maniple, Late 17th-early 18th century--Art Museum of Chicago Breathtakingly beautiful weave for Good Friday: Fragment from an Orphrey Band known as The Man of Sorrows--15th century--Art Museum of Chicago An unusual but rich-looking cope: Italy or Spain Cope--Early 16th century--Art Museum of Chicago In fact, the Art Museum of Chicago has many other samples of liturgical textiles here. Hope you are inspired! Last Edited By: rcesq 05/16/08 18:29:05. Edited 1 time.
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Tridentinum		#960	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 9 05/17/08 00:03:20	Thanks a lot for your help! P.
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