Papal clothing and liturgical practices

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galantarie	why not "pop" and ethnic music in RC MASS ?	#921	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 4400 05/02/08 07:07:06 Member	CARDINAL JOSEPH RATZINGER QUOTE: "...the taking up of music into the liturgy must be its taking up into the Spirit, a transformation that entails both death and resurrection. That is why the Church has had to be critical of ethnic music; it could not be allowed untransformed into the sanctuary. The cultic music of pagan religions has a different status in human existence from the music which glorifies God in creation. Through rhythm and melody themselves, pagan music often endeavors to elicit an ecstasy of the senses, but without elevating the sense into the spirit; on the contrary, it attempts to swallow up the spirit in the senses as a means of release. This imbalance toward the senses recurs also in modern popular music: the "god" found here, the salvation of man identified here, is quite different from the God of the Christian faith...." [In a nut-shell], exactly what I, and "RCESQ", have been emphasizing , and trying to explain to all our participants and readers...as well as the music "directors" of all the RC Parishes throughout this world!...And I might add, that only Joseph Ratzinger/ Our Holy Father, could say it so PRECISELY...(and he devoted a whole chapter to this in his book: "A New Song Unto the Lord" as well). Not only should "performers" NOT be the "center of attention"; BUT Such music is o.k under other circumstances and settings: BUT unconditionally NOT AT THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS! Take a hint at what St. Gregory institutionalized and what Pope Leo XIII (more contemporaneously) revealed to the Church (through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, without any doubt, or ifs, ands or butttttssss!). And, by the way, Fr. George Rutler is right, 100%!... "I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it." [Ratzinger:"Salt of the Earth"] May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world! Last Edited By: galantarie 05/02/08 08:32:20. Edited 7 times.
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galantarie	LINK TO PRIOR DISCUSSION ON/OF SAME IMPORTANCE: Ratzinger on Sacred Liturgical Music	#922	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 4401 05/02/08 07:33:29 Member	P. S: I and others have been trying to express this from the "time" even prior to the present Papacy. See: "Can we help Out the Holy..." PLEASE read the second part of "A New Song for the Lord". Here is some of what Our Holy Father rightly states: Rock and pop music, music of the masses, the crowds, seek in reality "the pleasure of destruction, the removal of the barriers of every day life and the illusion of redemption in the liberation from oneself in the wild ecstasy OF NOISE AND THE MASSES." And, "...in this area, Satanical Cults and Satanical types of music are constantly spreading today whose dangerous power intentionally to wreck and eradicate the person HAS NOT BEEN TAKEN SERIOUSLY ENOUGH." ... It is similar to "Ritual Music" where in many forms of pagan religions "music is ordered to stupor and to ecstasy. Freeing humans from limitations, which is the goal of that hunger for the infinite proper to humans, is supposed to be achieved through 'holy madness' through the delirium of the rhythm and the instruments Such music pulls down the barriers of individuality and personality, in it human beings free themselves from the burden of consciousness. Music turns into ecstasy, liberation from the ego, 'becoming one with the universe'. Today we experience the profane return of this type of music in a large part of the rock and pop music whose festivals are a counterculture of the same orientation---the pleasure of destruction, the removal of the barriers of everyday life and the ILLUSION of redemption in the liberation from oneself, in the wild ecstasy of NOISE AND THE MASSES.It is a question of redemptive practices whose form of redemption is related to DRUGS and diametrically opposed to the Christian faith in redemption...." Our Holy Father goes on to explain what certain types of rhythms create and its destructive powers, all too well known by Satan. [J.R.R.Tolkien explained it very well in the beginning of the Silmarillion.] Our Holy Father wrote: "...music has become today the decisive vehicle of a counterreligion and thus the showplace for the discerning of spirits. On one hand, since rock music seek redemption by way of liberation from the personality and its responsibility, it fits very precisely into the anarchistic ideas of freedom that are manifesting themselves more openly all over the world. But that is also exactly why such music is diametrically opposed to the Christian notions of redemption and freedom, indeed their true contradiction. MUSIC OF THIS TYPE MUST BE EXCLUDED FROM THE CHURCH, not for aesthetic reasons, not out of reactionary stubbornness, not because of historical rigidity, but because of its very nature." [Our Holy Father then goes onto explaining the different kinds of music, and what they accomplish...]: "...ordinary Light music which does not seek to make a statement; but only wants to break open the burden of silence...rationalistic music, in which the tones simply serve rational constructions but no real penetration of the mind and senses ensues...." Considering the complete Western Music Historic Tradition from plainchant up through the modern Christian works of such as Hohvaness and Pärt, etc....It is " the music that corresponds to the worship of the Incarnate One who was raised up on the cross lives from another, greater, and broader synthesis of spirit, intuition, and sensuous sound. " It "derives from the inner richness of this synthesis and has developed its posibilities abundantly. This magnificence exists only here because it was able to grow solely from the anthopological ground that combined the spiritual and the profane in an ultimate human unity...For me the greatness of this music is the most immediate and most evident verification that history has to offer of the CHRISTIAN IMAGE OF HUMAN BEINGS and of Christian Faith in redemption. WHOEVER IS REALLY TOUCHED BY IT KNOWS SOMEHOW DEEP DOWN INSIDE THAT THE FAITH IS TRUE.......such redemption is more arduous than that of rapture , but this struggle is the exertion of truth itself. On one hand it must integrate the senses into the spirit, it must correspond to the impulse of the 'sursum corda'. On the other hand, however, this effort aims not at pure spiritualization but at an integration of sensuality and spirit so that in one another both become person. It does not debase the spirit when it takes the senses into itself; rather it supplies the spirit with THE WHOLE WEALTH OF CREATION. Nor does it make the senses less real when they are permeated by the spirit, rather only in this way do they receive a share in its infinity.---Whoever expects redemption from it will be disappointed, ---but by being integrated into the spirit of the senses receive a new depth and reach into infinity of the spiritual adventure. Only there do they come . This, however, presupposes that the spirit as well does not remain closed. The music of faith looks forward to the integration of the human being in the 'sursum corda'; human beings, however do not find this integration in themselves, but only in the self-transcendence into the incarnate Word. Sacred music that is in the framework of this movement thus becomes a purification of humans, their ascent. But let us not forget that this music is not the work of a moment, but participation in a history. It is realizes not by a single individual but only in cooperation. Hence, it is precisely in this music that the entry into the history of faith and the cooperation of all the members of the body of Christ also express themselves. The music leaves behind joy, a higher kind of ecstasy which does NOT wipe out the person, but unites and thus liberates. It lets us glimpse what freedom is, that freedom which does not destroy, but gathers and purifies." In the ongoing paragraphs he explains the roadsigns that the Church has put up; and "often and not incidentally liturgical music actually has a mature quality about it and presupposes that a process of growth has already taken place...." "I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it." [Ratzinger:"Salt of the Earth"] May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world! Last Edited By: galantarie 05/02/08 08:01:53. Edited 3 times.
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PaxTibi		#923	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 122 05/02/08 11:08:20	Today we experience the profane return of this type of music in a large part of the rock and pop music whose festivals are a counterculture of the same orientation---the pleasure of destruction, the removal of the barriers of everyday life and the ILLUSION of redemption in the liberation from oneself, in the wild ecstasy of NOISE AND THE MASSES. I can understand and share Ratzinger's disquiet about certain modern musical genres, particularly Heavy Metal, and I agree strongly that rock and pop music have absolutely no place within the context of the Mass, but I take issue with the blanketing of all rock and pop music as counterculture and "Satanic". I don't know about anyone else but listening to the music of 'pop' groups when I was young never drove me into 'wild ecstasies' or put the idea of turning to Satanism or 'destruction' into my head. I often found the music, the lyrics and the beats inspirational and a substantial amount of this 'modern' music got me through some difficult times. Nor did I listen exclusively to 'pop' music. I also enjoyed listening to and being inspired by Classical music in equal measure. I appreciate that Ratzinger is trying to make an argument against the use of such music (Thank God!) in the context of the sacred Mass, but I have always felt a bit taken aback at this all out attack on modern music in general. To me there is a great deal of personal preference coming through in this piece of writing, which I sympathise with, because I can imagine modern music being painful to his gentle soul and sensibilities and understand his horror of at it being introduced into the celebration of the Mass. However, it does bother me that he chose to make such an unusally emotive and irrational generalisation in the context of such a serious and beautiful piece of writing. John Paul II was, by all appearances, not averse to rock and pop music and this was one of those areas in which he and Ratzinger most definitely disagreed. Are we to assume then that John Paul II was being inspired by something other than the Holy Spirit in his general support of rock and pop music and musicians? "The truest beauty is the love of God, who definitively revealed himself to us in the paschal mystery." Sacramentum Caritatis, 35 "We become witnesses when, through our actions, words and way of being, Another makes himself present." Sacramentum Caritatis, 85
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mag6nideum		#924	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1413 05/02/08 11:32:39	Thank you Galantarie for your two posts. Ity is always inspiring to read Ratzinger on music and the liturgy. Going back to Benodette's post (Father Neuhaus' reaction to the Washington Mass): I have already given my reaction to this event, and it was, on the whole, in agreement with that of Fr Neuhaus, although I also have sympathy with, and admiration for, the commitment and hard work that went into the musical aspects of that Mass. However, I'm wondering about the recurring phrase "growing organically" (from Tradition in liturgy and liturgical music) used by both Cardinal Ratzinger/Benedict, Fr Neuhaus and others, including RCC documents on the liturgy and its music. This "organic growth" was always part and parcel of the reasoning in Catholic theology as well ( for instance the continually developing dogmas re: the Holy Mother, that have more theologically -understandable grounds than what is verifiable historically). But when it comes to music in the liturgy, I doubt if using this phrase to direct musicians to the "right" thing has much practical worth. Why do I say this? Well, for a starter: has the Church ever given lists of examples of 18th, 19th and especially 20th century liturgical and devotional music that had "grown organically" from that of previous periods of tradition; music that carries the Church's blessing? From what does it have to grow organically? From Cantus Planus? It seems (to me) the Church takes it for granted that modern musicians/ music liturgists know/should know what exactly this fine-sounding phrase implies. But, I'm not so sure they really know what the supposed musical content is to be of the practical outcome of this philosophy (except for a small percentage of intelligent and well-trained people). Which compositions, styles or music historical periods would be "fine" from an "organical" point of view? The RCC and Vatican II apparently, and understandably, feel that it shouldn't adopt a rigidly descriptive and prescribing mode when it comes to liturgical music. Even the Council of Trent was vague in this regard. They moaned about the - listen to this, all polyphonic choral music fans! - indistinguishable text content of the Renaissance polyphonic composers. They decided that simpler settings where the words could be more easily grasped by the faithful, should be the norm. ( Reaction to the Reformation principles where simple Chorales and "the Word" were stressed and believers were supposed to be relieved to be able to "get" the textual message at last). So, was the Trent Fathers' admonition as to textual clarity heeded? Not really! We still got Palestrina (can we REALLY always easily hear the words in his Masses and motets?),Victoria et al. Composers of the Counter-Reformation! Today these composers are held to be the ultimate example of the ideal in Catholic liturgical music - and for me personally, to a great extent, they still are, although by far not the only heroes. And I still have to be wide awake to follow the textual content of their motets and masses. So much for the wishes of Trent! Anyhow, our Holy Father - and the relevant Vatican II document - point to the polyphony of the Renaissance as the ultimate ideal to follow. They seem to skip over the worries of the Council of Trent in this regard. Al right, granted, today we always follow up this ideal with a reference to the "organic development" from what has gone before. I agree a 100%. However, this pointer should IMHO be much more concrete today. In our time Mr X, the choir leader in a small parish in Africa, the USA or even Britain ( for example), just does not have the necessary background and training to even grasp faintly what "organic development" means in practical, hands on terms. Mr X will pounce on a piece of music (sometimes pure rubbish) with a reference to "the Holy Spirit" or "grace", or a faint whiff of plain chant surrounded by soppy New Age harmonies and "instrumentation", and heave a sigh of relief: "I'm okay, the liturgy will be just fine with this, I'm in the Spirit of Vatican II; I'm following the 'organic development' -directive that is asked of me." In short: the training of church musicians has gone down the drain. (This goes for all Christian denominations). Nothing, but absolutely nothing, will improve in the liturgy if the Church does not tackle the problem at its roots. The brilliant books and the highly philosophical and theological reasoning of Joseph Ratzinger on the liturgy - and especially the mucic of the liturgy in its idealised form - will be understood by only a handful of throw-backs, and they are slowly but surely dying out now. Father Neuhaus and all of us ( I'm first in the row) can lament until doomsday; things won't change by referring to documents or Ratzinger's writings. The problem is not in the first place "the Spirit of Vatican II". It is incompetence and the absence of proper education and training of church musicians. And, do priests get education in liturgical music any more? I'm just asking, I don't know what the current (or historical) situation is. Will anything "grow organically" and improve if the clergy has the musical taste and insight of teenagers? Add to this the pervading culture of democracy, where everybody should be made happy, comfortable and catered for. In many Protestant churches this includes the musical taste of 8-year old kids.... Vatican II is not the only reason for this sad state of affairs, although - again - they have been much too vague with regard to liturgical music. Most musicians today are rotten "theologians" and the priests and parsons are - on the whole - musical ignoramusses and especially liturgical music know- nothings. I don't think this was always the case. I am waiting to see if - amd when - the Holy Father and the RCC address this whole matter in an organised, well-planned and ultimately also practical and pragmatic manner. It can be done, even if things won't improve over-night. If anyone knows about a "grand plan" in practical terms, held by the Catholic Church (world wide) to actively and committedly improve the state of liturgical music, please share it with us / me. I may be wholly uninformed about this. The point is: I really care and I'm deeply convinced - like Galantarie, the Holy Father and thousands of others - that this topic is of the utmost importance for the future of the Christian faith. The kind of music we make in church and cathedral reflects our deepest convictions and beliefs about Christ, about the Holy Trinity, about ourselves and our relation to the Truth. This is not something to play around with. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Later: To PaxTibi: Your reaction is shared by other people I know. They somehow feel taken aback by the suggestion that they have been potentially infected by satanic forces while they in the meantime are not vaguely conscious of such a state of being in themselves. Pax, don't worry too much. ( I know you don't, just joking!) I'm sure you're OK!! I think Cardinal Ratzinger was perhaps arguing in the very broad terms of Nietzsche, although this may sound crazy, Nietzsche having been agnostic-atheist. Nietzsche's take on the Appolonian versus Dionysian manifestations in the Greek antique era had become quite useful. In any case the Church always held to the Appolinian (more rational, harmonic, balanced) view of art in the liturgy and life in general, as opposed to the Dionysian (the cultic wine god, with his seasonal dying and rising again, the things that Galantarie described above, including sexual release, etc.) from which the Greek tragedy with its catharsis-event eventually grew. Ratzinger in effect says nothing new. If you read the history of church music, you'll meet the same argument again and again, from the very beginning of our Christian era. Ratzinger however has the gift of formulating all this in beautiful, elevated prose without losing the rational gist of the argument. And, it may also be that he has more reason to be arguing for the Appolinian in life and in liturgy. The "abuses" that today accompany the Dionysian in our culture are more manifold and at the same time more subtle than in pagan times. Perhaps we have lost the intrinsic balance between the two poles that had been part of the Geek ancient life. The ancients tried, by using Dionysian feasts, to get relief from the Appolinian aspects by releasing subconscious "energies". But a balance between the two opposite poles of life energies had to be found . It was, according to Nietzsche - and who is to say he was completely correct? - accomplished in the art of Greek theatre/tragedy. We have lost that vehicle. Many people today go for the Dionysian in the form of rock, drugs and sex, if statistics can be believed. It is a purely "Dionysian" release, without the balancing, integrating art form of Greek tragedy or something comparable, where the Apollinian can also work its magic. By pure chance I've read today that the Church's stress on the "Appolinian" in worship during the Middle Ages had a counterpart in rather lewd, secular festival music and dance. "Carnaval versus Lent" was the title of the chapter. The Medieval liturgical music was otherworldly and "balanced". ( Vide: Gregorian chant). It certainly had its opposite in secular music of the time, although we would today ask ourselves what on earth was all the fuss about if we listen only to the musical settings (extremely "tame" in comparison with our popular music) without being conscious of the content of the texts. To get back to Cardinal Ratzinger's worries regarding pop, rock and metal: maybe he has also in mind the socio-economic-political matrix and background of these genres in our time. That certainly is the main gripe from a music-sociological point of view. The "lewd" music of the Middle Ages was produced by a basically Christian society. The West was Christianised in most respects and had, ultimately, that "saving" net and basis from which all cultural manifestations developed. The popular music of our time is first of all consumer music, totally secular, driven by money making principles, and on the whole fabricated to create ever new markets and fashions, purely motivated by monetary greed, and with recording businesses directing the trends in a sometimes ruthless manner. There is a world of difference between what comes spontaneously from "the people" in folk music that can also be very down to earth and sensual but in an authentic manner, and music fabricated and dumbed down to one or two primitive, basic, rhythmical and melodic patterns repeated ad infinitum at deafening decibles. It is probably to music of this kind that Ratzinger refers when he gets into the "Satanic" possibilities of rock or whatever. I don't think he is sucking this view totally from his thumb. I had a piano pupil a few years ago, basically a nice young guy who wanted to learn to read music and play the piano a bit. His goal was to be drummer in a "band". I took him on but couldn't understand why he was always falling asleep before he even sat down on the piano stool. I had no experience of druggies etc. He wore black clothes - always - and looked like he needed a bath - always. I asked him to bring me his favorite music on CD. I got a whiff... it turned out to be the most dreadful cabal, all about Satan etc. ear shattering and awful. I felt terrible listening to it. Almost sick.This is what he wanted to do and be and play, he told me. I made no horrifed fuss, only tried to bring the other side of life and music to him. I failed completely. His parents failed, and they loved him. Within two months he couldn't speak properly anymore, he could only stutter and his replies to me had to be done on his cell phone. I'm not going to tell the rest. Ratzinger may be a bit over the top, but his remarks are not without basis. The greater part of today's youth do not balance their "rock" and metal with anything else. It is all they know. Their musical universe. I think Card. Ratzinger had this unbalanced situation in mind. Last Edited By: mag6nideum 05/02/08 14:02:21. Edited 4 times.
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galantarie		#925	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 4403 05/02/08 22:26:42 Member	Sacred vs. The Profane Even with "modern" Christian-Pop...do you notice how the "C& W" music-roots has always remained the same...lyically and musically over the last 60 years! The tunes, storylines never change. THEN ALSO: The experiments of the "popular" music genrès in the late 60's unfortunately died-out after the demise of progressive-metal bands by the late 1980's. What "such" bands as "Rhapsody"/ Malmsteen expound today, cannot really compete artisticly with true- Classical. It is what "Easy Listening" was...even if in a different "sense" of the Senses.... And, as Our Holy Father says, all that "other" music was created for a DIFFERENT purpose than the emmolition of Christ in the Eucharist. Tolkien definitely understood the dangers involved...[very subtle]....as he had the greatest insights into the true state of Evil (and its poisoning), in his opening chapter of "The Simirillion". READ IT if you have not already. Is not that the most perfect description of the chaos and captivating rhythms expounded by the "cheap-imitation" of the TRUE by Satan? (Remember MELKOR is Satan.) Daily doses of SPEED/INDUSTRIAL Metal will definitely fade one's memory of the capacity for BEAUTY that man uniquely has within him. A diet of only rock will make "classical"- music more than a foreign element : It will turn one completely away from the soul's appreciation of God's inspired Art within His Creation. I know of many people, who once adored the 2000 year-old tradition of Western Music. Then they got "hooked" onto the "pop" culture. Their ability and insight to love and understand classic-tradition was not only diminished; but drove them completely into the opposite direction: toward simplistic blandness (and they were totally unaware of the change that occurred within them as well)! Not only did many of them become tone-deaf; but their prospective on life and eternity metamorphed too. The're really are dangers....And how many of these people can honestly and sincerely say, as Ludwig vanBeethoven, "that it all comes from God, not myself/themselves"!...giving GOD all the credit and glory. REMEMBER: "Only my very BEST is worthy of Christ"; not the "mundane", the "ever-day" quick-fix....(As in our attire) We tend to forget that the Vicar of Christ is Representative of that Christ. What is performed in his presence, should also be what one would perform in the presence of CHRIST/GOD Himself (as in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass...where He is indeed present as well!)...Now, will that be of a group popularly known for a very short period of time as "The Doghnuts"???; or, rather a grand Eternal Mass [i.e. "Messe de Notre Dame"] as composed by Guillaume de Machaut! MUST THE GRANDES ORGANS BE REMOVED FROM THE CHOIR LOFT! "I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it." [Ratzinger:"Salt of the Earth"] May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world! Last Edited By: galantarie 05/02/08 23:10:55. Edited 4 times.
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PaxTibi		#926	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 123 05/03/08 06:26:06	PaxTibi: Your reaction is shared by other people I know. They somehow feel taken aback by the suggestion that they have been potentially infected by satanic forces while they in the meantime are not vaguely conscious of such a state of being in themselves. Pax, don't worry too much. ( I know you don't, just joking!) I'm sure you're OK!! Actually, mag6, it is Ratzinger's unusual generalisation in this piece that puzzled me. It's most unlike him to be so imprecise and it is not like him to adopt such a "one size fits all" policy. Please understand that I am certainly not trying to say that he is not entitled to that opinion. However, I cannot help feeling that there is a large degree of personal taste/distaste coming through together with his deep intellectual and spiritual conviction. His views also fit well with many of his age group who think that all rock/pop/modern music is nonsensical rubbish. My own father was none too fond of the music I played when I was a teenager and he was 14 years older than Ratzinger. His dislike had nothing to do with any spiritual or intellecutal beliefs, or academic views - he simply didn't like it and would not have taken the time to investigate any of its merits. It was an instance in which the generation gap widened into a canyon. I currently find that I have very little interest in contemporary pop/rock music. Why? Because, with the exception of the odd song or two, to my ear it sounds insipid, screechy, whiny and uninspired. Perhaps this is because most of it is insipid, screechy, whiny and uninspired but I also know that because of this personal bias that I may well be losing out on some hidden 'gems'. This is something that I truly thought would never happen because I have always enjoyed listening to a wide range of music across all age groups and genres, but I'm beginning to appreciate the meaning of that thing they call the 'generation gap', which I had never previously understood. Ratzinger however has the gift of formulating all this in beautiful, elevated prose without losing the rational gist of the argument. With regard to the passage currently under discussion, I have to disagree with you. The broad generalisation that he makes in this passage is not entirely rational, but emotive, and that is why I find it strange. This does not mean that I don't understand or appreciate his argument. I do not think that rock. pop or 'folksy' music has any place in the Mass, or that it should have. I do agree that the music we find in a Church should be of the type that does indeed inspire a true sursum cordae and rock and pop music just doesn't even begin to come anywhere close to doing that. I don't know about anyone else but, as much as I enjoy listening to rock and pop music, it has never directly influenced how I feel about God - it has certainly never led me to feel that 'secular' music is the be all and end all. It has also never led me to want to attend rock or pop concerts for the sole purpose of experiencing some kind of 'high'. This does not mean that I don't realise that there are people for whom this is indeed a dubious reality. I'm sure, mag6, that you've noticed a current 'rash' of Christian rock/pop artists in our own country, particularly related to the more Evangelical churches and, sadly, the NGK. They are, of course, using this popular form of music to attract the youngsters without, it seems, stopping to ponder if it is the music or Christ's message that is attracting many of them. Unfortunately, they simply see numbers. It is probably to music of this kind that Ratzinger refers when he gets into the "Satanic" possibilities of rock or whatever. I don't think he is sucking this view totally from his thumb. You know all too well that that is not what I was saying ... I would have thought you knew me better than that. I had a piano pupil a few years ago, basically a nice young guy who wanted to learn to read music and play the piano a bit. His goal was to be drummer in a "band". I took him on but couldn't understand why he was always falling asleep before he even sat down on the piano stool. I had no experience of druggies etc. He wore black clothes - always - and looked like he needed a bath - always. I asked him to bring me his favorite music on CD. I got a whiff... it turned out to be the most dreadful cabal, all about Satan etc. ear shattering and awful. I felt terrible listening to it. Almost sick.This is what he wanted to do and be and play, he told me. I made no horrifed fuss, only tried to bring the other side of life and music to him. I failed completely. His parents failed, and they loved him. Within two months he couldn't speak properly anymore, he could only stutter and his replies to me had to be done on his cell phone. I'm not going to tell the rest. The fact that you became ill when listening to that music doesn't surprise me at all. I too have known people who have come into contact with truly Satanic music and I have seen the horrible and destructive changes that it can effect in their lives. But that is why I feel that Ratzinger did need to be a bit more precise and I am disappointed that he didn't expand a little more on his comments. There is indeed a lot of destructive music out there, even music that is not deliberately Satanic. To me there has always been something extremely disquieting about Heavy Metal (and its offshoots) and I have never understood what anyone could see in it or how they could enjoy it. "The truest beauty is the love of God, who definitively revealed himself to us in the paschal mystery." Sacramentum Caritatis, 35 "We become witnesses when, through our actions, words and way of being, Another makes himself present." Sacramentum Caritatis, 85
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mag6nideum		#927	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1415 05/03/08 09:34:24	"You know all too well that that is not what I was saying ... I would have thought you knew me better than that. " Oops, sorry Pax ! I didn't mean you yourself thought the Cardinal sucked his views on rock/"satan" etc. from his thumb. You are too balanced, fair and rational to have ever thought that. It was just my way of reasoning with myself and always trying to look at the other side of a matter (sometimes a big fault of mine...). I understand that you have such a high regard for Joseph Ratzinger that it puzzles you when he makes a statement that contains a generalisation. I think I also mentioned that he went a bit over the top in his views on rock etc. although, like you, I have sympathy with his underlying philosophy, as we perhaps all have on this forum. "I'm sure, mag6, that you've noticed a current 'rash' of Christian rock/pop artists in our own country, particularly related to the more Evangelical churches and, sadly, the NGK. They are, of course, using this popular form of music to attract the youngsters without, it seems, stopping to ponder if it is the music or Christ's message that is attracting many of them. Unfortunately, they simply see numbers." Yes, I've seen this phenomenon. That is one of the reasons why I am on my way out of there...... Let's hope I don't meet the same kind of thing next year, Pax! I'm almost too scared to inquire about it.
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Benodette		#928	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 5319 05/04/08 16:26:29	"By its nature such music must be different from music that is supposed to lead to rhythmic ecstasy, stupefying anesthetization, sensual excitement, or the dissolution of the ego in Nirvana, to name just a few possibilities" I think that Cardinal Ratzinger's opinions on popular music and rock music are a reflection of his own experiences and perceptions as well as his personal tastes. Most people encounter popular music as teenagers and they relate it to their personal experiences. The lyrics of popular music usually dwell on relationships of the romantic kind. They touch young people just as they are discovering their own romantic relationships. Whether that music is Cole Porter, Frank Sinatra, Elvis, the Beatles, Eric Clapton, Abba, Justin Timberlake or Britney Spears depends on the era. I don't think it does any harm although it is not suitable for the liturgy. People listen to popular music to unwind and have a good time. What is wrong with music which has a compelling beat and which makes people want to get up and move? Dancing to popular music doesn't mean people are becoming stupefied and entering an ecstatic state. Of course some people do get coked-up, or take Ecstasy or dope in places like nightclubs where this kind of music is played - but the drug-taking has nothing to do with the music and everything to do with the people involved. Most people just enjoy popular music for innocent fun - it isn't an escape, or a means to find Nirvana or an invitation to Satan to join the party. Joseph Ratzinger doesn't understand that kind of popular culture because he has no experience of it. As a teenager, when Cole Porter and Glen Miller were popular across the Atlantic, he was sent to the war. Then he was in the seminary. When Elvis was King he was deep in theological study. I doubt if he was ever taught to dance, even though he had a sister. The kind of social situations in which popular music plays a perfectly legitimate role were not part of his formation. He probably makes a connection between rock music and the anarchic period in the late sixties which had such a profound effect on him. I love all kinds of music. Classical music is part of my professional life but I also like to relax with jazz, pop, rock and trance. Liturgical music has its own unique place too. I agree that popular music has no place in the liturgy. Cardinal Ratzinger may have heartily disliked contemporary popular music, and that is perfectly understandable, but to dub rock music as a genre "Satanic" is to endow it with a power it does not have. I can't find the quotation where he actually refers to it as "Satanic" in any case. Can anyone find the exact quote and the context? Mag it sounds as if your student was on some kind of mind-changing substance which made him psychotic. It is true that some music out there is very nasty - I suppose Eminem is an example - but one has to go looking for it. Most of us just avoid it. These articles are relevant to the discussion and contain many quotatons from Cardinal Ratzinger's writings. Cardinal Ratzinger on liturgical music Hear No Evil - My Perspective on Rock Music
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galantarie		#929	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 4405 05/04/08 20:35:46 Member	"Benodette" writes: "Joseph Ratzinger doesn't understand that kind of popular culture because he has no experience of it...." Please excuse me for saying this (as I mean this young lady absolutely NO MALICE); but the above statements, by her, are some of the stupidest things I ever read! She agrees that "Pop" is inappropriate for LITURGY at least!..and war or not; I know that Our Holy Father has been well exposed-to and NOT ignorant of the popular music trends.. .[One would have to be deaf, in solitary-confinement within a dungeon-prison, or live in a cultist-sect, to not know what is going on within the "pop" scene, even during the Hitler years!] BUT THAT STILL DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE MUST LIKE WHAT HE HEARD/ HEARS!!! I am sure that Our Holy Father, like myself, does not despise ALL "pop" music...just it's "CULTURE" and commercialism; and MOST of which passes as "music"! Being "exposed" and aware of "pop" still DOES NOT MEAN THAT ONE MUST LIKE IT. I certainly do not like most of it; and I have not stopped my ears up. In my younger years I even worked for the biggest music-chains with its musical-horrors blasting into my ears for years-on-end! I learned to understand: IF SOMETHING IS BAD, it is bad....and just sometimes, a little GOOD can creep its way in.* (One cannot change a yellow-jacket or ground wasp into the beauty of a Mosquito-Hawk/Dragon-fly.... *Over and over, I have repeatedly stated an affection for artists as Bing Crosby and Tino Rossi, who were not classical artists/actors; and still enriched the culture of the Roman-Catholic Church WITHOUT seeking to reform It's musical-Liturgy (or ever denying the Supremacy and wisdom of the Holy Pontiff). These artists, and others like them, never sought to remove the Pipe Organs from the choir loft and replace them with steel-guitars, banjos and thumping rhythm-only-drums. They respected Christ's Authority; and did not go parish-to-parish trying to reform the Church through subversion of God's Holy principles...as so many contemporary teen idols today. As for myself, [classically trained and bred from the cradle] when I went to Queens College and Nichols State U. [graduating with post-graduate degrees when I was 24 years of age], ofcourse I adored Phil Ochs (after he rejected his former "marching" and lyrically re-embraced beauty), and Donovan Leitch (post "Sunshine Superman"); but fortunately I never was a Beatle-"fan"....Much of the "pop" music of that period was beginning to embrace Baroque music structures as COUNTERPOINT; and THAT did intrigue me...But never once did the thought occur to me to experiment with "pop" music styles and incorporate those styles into the Sacred Liturgies! When my youngest daughter was "coming of age" [in context to what "Benodette" wrote] I even learned to appreciate Dio, Dokken, Black Sabbath, Malmsteen, the Scorpians and Iron Maiden. BUT, again...NONE OF THOSE "pop" artists or groups came near to suggesting an imposition of their progressive styles onto Sacred Liturgy! They knew their LIMITATIONS; and what they offered was ENTERTAINMENT: they solely performed to make fellow human beings happy....NOT TO SING AT MASS....And, none of their music could win in comparison to the classical-tradition handed down from God himself! Again, Please read the opening chapter of TOLKIEN'S "SILMIRILLION": The Music of the Ainur. __________________________________________________ And for "Benodette", the quote you asked for, once again, from "A New Song for the Lord": "...in this area, Satanical Cults and Satanical types of music are constantly spreading today whose dangerous power intentionally to wreck and eradicate the person HAS NOT BEEN TAKEN SERIOUSLY ENOUGH."... "I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it." [Ratzinger:"Salt of the Earth"] May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world! Last Edited By: galantarie 05/08/08 13:59:36. Edited 11 times.
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Unicorn	On matters musical	#930	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1293 05/04/08 23:14:01	Please excuse me for saying this (as I mean this young lady absolutely NO MALICE); but the above statements, by her, are some of the stupidest things I ever read! Nevertheless, Galantarie, it is possible to disagree with what a person said without describing their statements as "some of the stupidest things I ever read". I do not see what is so stupid about these particular statements of Benodette: Joseph Ratzinger doesn't understand that kind of popular culture because he has no experience of it. As a teenager, when Cole Porter and Glen Miller were popular across the Atlantic, he was sent to the war. Then he was in the seminary. When Elvis was King he was deep in theological study. I doubt if he was ever taught to dance, even though he had a sister. The kind of social situations in which popular music plays a perfectly legitimate role were not part of his formation. He probably makes a connection between rock music and the anarchic period in the late sixties which had such a profound effect on him. All her suppositions are perfectly reasonable, and I myself share her opinion that Joseph Ratzinger has been, in a certain sense, very "sheltered" from popular music trends. Let us examine each one of the statements Benodette made. "Joseph Ratzinger doesn't understand that kind of popular culture because he has no experience of it. As a teenager, when Cole Porter and Glen Miller were popular across the Atlantic, he was sent to the war." During the war years, when Joseph Ratzinger was a teenager, it must be remembered that the Nazi propaganda machine exercised draconian controls over what the German people read in their books and newspapers, and in all probability, over what they heard on the radio as well. In the earlier years of the Third Reich, it was still possible to listen to foreign radio stations such as the BBC, but during the war years, listening to a foreign radio station could earn a person a one-way ticket to a concentration camp. Given Adolf Hitler's obsession for all things Aryan, I don't think he would have allowed the music of Glen Miller and all the musical artists who were very popular with the young people of the US, to filter into Germany, especially when he was at the zenith of his power -- the man would not even allow the music of Felix Mendelssohn to be played, because this great composer was a Jew! Certainly, popular American music would not have been allowed in the barracks that the young Ratzinger had to call home for quite some time. The Big Band music would most probably have been heard over the hidden radios cobbled together by American POWs, but definitely not in the barracks of the young German conscripts. "Then he was in the seminary. When Elvis was King he was deep in theological study. I doubt if he was ever taught to dance, even though he had a sister." Right after the war, Joseph Ratzinger entered the seminary, something that he had planned to do for quite a while. From all accounts, he was very much involved in his studies, and he didn't strike one as the kind of young man who would frequent the cafés and other "watering holes" of the young people of his day - he was certainly much happier in the seminary libraries, or taking one of his long, contemplative walks. I think it is reasonable enough to conjecture that he never went out on a date, so focused was he on becoming a priest, hence Benodette's statement that the social situations in which he would have encountered popular music in a perfectly legitimate context were not a part of his life. "He probably makes a connection between rock music and the anarchic period in the late sixties which had such a profound effect on him." It is perfectly reasonable to believe that Joseph Ratzinger's view of rock music was influenced by the very difficult period of the 1960s, when the student unrests caused so much havoc on both sides of the Atlantic, and no small degree of distress in his. Since he never had the opportunity to see popular music in another context, it is understandable that he views some forms of it with consternation. In the years following the turbulent 1960s, Ratzinger - possibly due in part to his own innate reserve and shyness - moved in a relatively intimate circle of friends and fellow-academics who most probably shared his own musical tastes, and did not feel the urge to "introduce" him to the more contemporary musical trends. I fail to see, therefore, what is so stupid about what Benodette said. I think it is definitely true that Joseph Ratzinger did not have any extensive experience with all forms of popular music and certain aspects of popular culture. We must all accept that in certain ways, he led a rather cloistered life, his world being largely composed of his university life with his students and his fellow academics, and his homelife with his brother (a classically-trained musician) and his sister - and even when he left Bavaria for Rome, his circle of friends was still primarily composed of people who most probably shared his musical, literary, and artistic tastes. He has always been known as a shy, self-effacing, quiet man, and this is not necessarily the kind of person who would like to frequent popular "watering holes"; hence, there was not much occasion for him to really experience some aspects of popular culture as we have experienced them, popular music being one of such aspects. There is nothing stupid about contemplating such a possibility. As has been said before, Galantarie, we are all free to disagree with each other's opinions - but we must do so charitably. However much you may say that you bear no malice towards Benodette, it is still not very charitable to refer to those of her statements with which you disagree as "the stupidest thing I ever heard". I trust, therefore, that you will refrain from such a statement in the future, with regard to anyone on the Forum. ************* On a separate note, Pax and Mag6, I have read your posts with great interest. I have not had any kind of formal education in classical music, and as such, discussions such as these are intriguing. I have to say, Pax, that I understand your anxiety. It is, of course, a little difficult for those of us who also appreciate popular music to read Cardinal Ratzinger's rather passionate discourse against popular music trends. I suppose that, music being so much a part of his soul, this is one issue where his reactions will be rather visceral, especially if one considers that, as Benodette commented, his exposure to popular music may have come in the 1960s, when rock music had - rightly or wrongly - come to be identified with more disturbing social developments. For someone who had been listening to the sublimity of Mozart since his earliest childhood, the experience of "heavy metal" must have been nothing short of utterly shocking. (I know I still find it shocking, and can't understand how anyone can listen to such noise all the time!) Mag6, I agree that the education of church musicians must be given greater attention, although whether the lack of truly gifted church musicians today is an off-shoot of Vatican II is still something that is debatable. I think it is, rather, something that can be traced to the "elevation" of classical music into something that - supposedly - only the wealthy and the intellectuals can appreciate. In Joseph Ratzinger's time, the music of the masters was very much more accessible to the "working class" - today, going to the symphony, the opera or the ballet is often seen as something that is more suited to people from the upper classes or the intelligentsia. As a result, the musical exposure of today's young people becomes ever more limited to purely popular music. You spoke of the lack of the Apollonian quality in both life and the liturgy, and I think this is one of its manifestations. I do not know if this is the proper way to say it, but there are times when it seems to me that the contemporary world believes the "Apollonian ideal" to be comprehensible only to certain sectors of society - this is a shame, for I believe that there is, in everyone, the capacity to recognize and celebrate such an ideal, regardless of one's social status or academic achievement. I do not know if liturgical music was ever a part of a seminarian's academic formation, but perhaps it will do the Church a world of good to introduce a course in both classical and liturgical music, along with the usual academic subjects. If a seminarian did not have the opportunity to be introduced to classical music prior to his entry into the seminary, then by all means, he should be exposed to such sublimity - I can think of few better opportunities for a person to learn to appreciate the music of the masters, than in this beautiful context. I daresay that it might even make them appreciate their theological and philosophical studies all the more! Insofar as music in the liturgy is concerned, I share everyone's opinions that popular music is best left in the secular sphere, and perhaps if the succeeding generations of priests and religious will be exposed to more classical and liturgical music, they too will understand this. People listen to popular music to unwind and have a good time. What is wrong with music which has a compelling beat and which makes people want to get up and move? Dancing to popular music doesn't mean people are becoming stupefied and entering an ecstatic state. Of course some people do get coked-up, or take Ecstasy or dope in places like nightclubs where this kind of music is played - but the drug-taking has nothing to do with the music and everything to do with the people involved. Most people just enjoy popular music for innocent fun - it isn't an escape, or a means to find Nirvana or an invitation to Satan to join the party. I quite agree, Benodette. I am a child of the 1980s, and I can say that I particularly enjoyed some of the popular dance tunes of that decade - I felt that the music of those years still had some excellent rhythms, and one could actually understand the lyrics of the songs! I have to confess that I am never going to be a fan of rap music, and I would not touch heavy metal rock with a thousand-foot pole! I love classical music, but I also take great pleasure in listening to modern jazz (James Ingram, Kenny G, David Benoit or Earl Klugh, anyone?) and I have always, always enjoyed the songs and instrumental compositions of David Foster (the Canadian composer who did the theme for the Calgary Winter Olympics), the music of Burt Bacharach, and the love songs of Whitney Houston (what a phenomenal voice!). I agree that the taking of drugs in clubs and bars has nothing to do with popular music - if that were so, then everyone who went to a club would turn into a drug addict. And in the case of rock musicians who, sadly, become drug addicts, such a tragedy is most probably due more to the terrible pressures of being in the limelight, to say nothing of being in the company of people who care more for one's "profitability" than anything else. I have two female cousins who live in Sydney - one is now in her late 20s, while the other is in her early 30s. Both of them enjoyed the "club scene", but neither one turned into a drug addict, an alcoholic or a person of terribly loose morals. Both work very hard at their respective jobs, and think of an evening at a club as simply a chance to "unwind" with friends - my older cousin, in fact, is now very happily married. It doesn't necessarily follow that people who enjoy popular music and popular culture are going to turn into "coke-heads". It is true that some music out there is very nasty - I suppose Eminem is an example - but one has to go looking for it. Most of us just avoid it. Definitely. Mag6, I can only hope that your former student did not completely fall prey to the demon of drug addiction. I wouldn't be surprised that you felt physically ill listening to just a bit of his "favorite music". I can only thank God that I've never heard any of that music, and I don't intend to ever get within "shouting distance" of it. Benodette*, I confess that I've never listened to Eminem - is it that … err … awful? Shudder* Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI
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galantarie	TOLKIEN: Music of the Ainur (The chaos of Melkor)	#931	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 4406 05/05/08 00:16:17 Member	Last Edited By: galantarie 05/05/08 00:59:11. Edited 4 times.
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Benodette	Cardinal Ratzinger and "Satanic" Rock Music	#932	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 5321 05/05/08 07:09:09	Galanterie I do wish you would curb your gratuitous rudeness. There is no need for it. You are free to disagree but please do so politely. I did not say that Joseph Ratzinger had to "like" popular music. It would never occur to me to make such a pronouncement about anyone in relation to anything. What I said was that he would have had limited opportunities for exposure to popular music in the kind of situations most young people encounter it. I still think that is the case. I asked if anyone could find the exact quotation where Cardinal Ratzinger refers to rock music as "satanic." Your large image of pages from The Silmarillion does not exactly do that, and this is not a discussion about Tolkien.
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Benodette	Vestments for a Cardinal from a Pope	#933	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 5322 05/05/08 07:17:23	Pope Benedeict gave Cardinal Egan three vestments on his recent visit to New York - one for St Patrick's Cathedral, one for St Joseph's Seminary at Yonkers and one for Cardinal Egan himself. Cardinal Egan wore his gold, gothic style vestment last Sunday in the cathedral. NY Daily News New YorK Daily News - It pays to know the Pope. Edward Cardinal Egan celebrated Mass at St.Patrick's Cathedral yesterday in his new Sunday best: a golden robe compliments of Pope Benedict. "This morning, you may notice that I'm all dolled up in a very, very beautiful vestment," Egan said. "This is one of three vestments that the Holy Father gave me during his three-day visit to New York." The vestments are meant to represent each day the Holy Father spent in New York. The delicate robe Egan wore was hand-embroidered at the Vatican with images of wheat and grapes, symbols of the Eucharist. The German Pope's personal coat of arms completed the intricate design. The Pope presented Egan with the vestments - two gold, one red - as Benedict prepared to celebrate Mass at Yankee Stadium. Cardinal Egan's 'dolled up' in robe from Pope Benedict
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galantarie		#934	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 4407 05/05/08 08:09:59 Member	Dear "Benodette": You totally missed the point. IN GREEN is what Our Holy Father said...which the Media and Press blew out-of-all Proportions!! The Tolkien quote is presented to show, that not only Our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, but others [even quite beyond "his" generation], understood how the powers of Evil can subtly influence and deceive humanity through music: being a CHEAP IMITATION OF THE REAL THING. This is certainly nothing "new"! Although the young and uninformed of every era seem to believe it is particular to their "culture" ! It is exceptionally poignant. Please read it...You might be very surprised as to what this very devout Roman-Catholic


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