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Welcome to The Pope Benedict XVI Forum
The Pope Benedict XVI Fan Club invites your participation in our open, yet civil and (hopefully) respectful discussion of topics by and about Pope Benedict XVI and general issues in Catholic faith & theology. Members, please acquaint yourself with our FORUM RULES -- failure to abide by the rules will result in warnings from the moderator and possible expulsion by the management. |
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Nadezda 072 |
Re: The Aventin Churches of Rome | #121 | ||
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Thank you, Galantarie, for the thorough information. We could hear the Litanie of the Saints at Pope John Paul II Funeral Mass and some partucular solemn services in the past year which were broadcasted worldwide. It is a very imppressive, imploring prayer.
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mag6nideum |
Re: The Aventin Churches of Rome | #122 | ||
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Thanks for the links and thorough info Galantarie!
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galantarie |
Papa on Sacred Tradition in Music | #123 | ||
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Benedict XVI's Address on Sacred Music
"Renewal Can Only Happen in the Wake of the Great Tradition of the Past" Preseted on 24 June 2006, after a concert sponsored by the Domenico Bartolucci Foundation: Quote: [Translation issued by the Holy See] Copyright 2006 -- Libreria Editrice Vaticana [adapted] "I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."
[Ratzinger:"Salt of the Earth"] ![]() May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world! |
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canisiusgrad |
Help???? | #124 | ||
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Galantarie (or others who may know),
Your post tonight reminded me of something I've wanted to know but don't know anyone to ask. I hope you don't mind if I impose on you and your knowledge of sacred music, and ask if you know the title of the processional chant of Benedict's very first mass. I find it very beautiful. I go to the Vatican Website and replay it often. (I scanned past entries on this thread and didn't see a discussion or mention of it but since I skimmed I may have missed it.) I don't know Latin so I couldn't even attempt to spell the words. Phonetically, it sounds something like "u be la tay deo il vo Jesu tatseo.." (my apologies for mangling this). Without going to any trouble - does this ring a bell - If it does what would the correct spelling/title be? |
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DominiSumus |
Re: Papa on Sacred Tradition in Music | #125 | ||
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The processional hymn was Pope Benedict's installation Mass was the Laudes Regiae, or "Royal Praises"
The refrain "Exaudi, Christe" means Hear us Christ. Then a litany similar to the litany of the saints was chanted. The response was :Ti illam adiuva" which means assist him. Here is the complete text of the chant. La schola: Lassemblea: Exaudi, Christe Exaudi Christe Ecclesi, spons et corpori, Lumine gentium resplendenti Christo: dificatio et consolatio Dei! Christe, Fili Dei vivi, Tu illam adiuva Iesu, Fili David, Tu illam adiuva Christe, Fili Dei vivi, Tu illam adiuva Salvator Mundi, Tu illam adiuva Christe, Fili Dei vivi, Tu illam adiuva Exaudi, Christe Exaudi, Christe Ecclesi, ovili et gregi Dei agricultur et elect vine: fons aqu et fructus Spiritus! Sancta Maria, Tu illam adiuva Sancte Ioseph, Tu illam adiuva Sancte Ioannes Baptista, Tu illam adiuva Exaudi, Christe Exaudi, Christe Benedicto Romano Episcopo Successori Petri Gregis Christi unitatem exprimenti: robur et concordia Spiritus! Sancte Petre, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Paule, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Andrea, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Ioannes, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Iacobe, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Thoma, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Philippe, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Iacobe, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Bartholome, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Matthe, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Simon, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Thadde, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Matthia, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Luca, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Marce, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Barnaba, Tu illum adiuva Sancta Maria Magdalena, Tu illum adiuva Exaudi, Christe Exaudi, Christe Benedicto Romano Pontifici, Petri successori, suum ministerium hodie inauguranti sollicitudo pro universa Ecclesia! Sancte Line, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Clete, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Clemens, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Evariste, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Alexander (Prime), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Xyste (Prime), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Telesphore, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Hygine, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Pie (Prime), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Anicete, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Soter, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Eleutheri, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Victor (Prime), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Zephyrine, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Calliste (Prime), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Urbane (Prime), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Pontiane, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Anthere, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Fabiane, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Corneli, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Luci (Prime), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Stephane (Prime), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Xyste (Secunde), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Damase (Prime), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Leo Magne, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Gregori Magne, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Leo (None) Tu illum adiuva Sancte Stephane, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Ignati (Antiochene), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Laurenti, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Cypriane, Tu illum adiuva Sancta Agnes, Tu illum adiuva Sancta Ccilia, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Ambrosi, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Augustine, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Athanasi, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Basili, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Gregori (Nazianzene), Tu illum adiuva Sancte Ioannes Chrysostome, Tu illum adiuva Sancte Benedicte, Tu illum adiuva |
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DominiSumus |
Re: Help???? | #126 | ||
Quote: This got me thinking and I remembered that Pope Benedict's first Mass wasn't his installation Mass. For some reason I automatically thought "installation Mass". Your rough transcript was pretty good. Here are the words: Iubilate Deo in voce exultationis, alleluia The words were Psalm 46 and it was chanted to tone VIIIa Translated, Cry out to God with exultant voice, alleluia. Another Hymn I love is Jubilate Deo by Palestrina. The verse is: Jubilate Deo omnis terra, servite Domino in laetitia, intrate in conspectu ejus in exsultatione, quia Dominus ipse est Deus. The translation is Rejoice in God in all lands, Serve the Lord with gladness. Enter into his presence with exultation for the Lord is God. |
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canisiusgrad |
Thank you | #127 | ||
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DominiSumus,
Thank you - it is this second one -Psalm 46- that I so love. I'm hoping to find a download or recording of it, if I can. |
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galantarie |
Papa on Liturgical Music | #128 | ||
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Music and the Liturgy "dreamed-of" by Joseph Kardinal Ratzinger written by Giacomo Baroffio
Sandro Magister: Quote: "I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."
[Ratzinger:"Salt of the Earth"] ![]() May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world! |
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mag6nideum |
Re: Papa on Liturgical Music | #129 | ||
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Well, well, well... Galantarie.... thank you for this link.
I hope everyone will read the imaginary speeches. The "Wojtyla-speech" will probably anger some readers, but unfortunately Pope John Paul II (and I loved him, make no mistake) may be criticised quite severely by future historians of music, including historians of church music. This will be quite sad, because he was a great Pope in other respects. I have read a few times that Papa Wojtyla had a "tin-ear" for music (that was the expression used). Perhaps this is an exaggeration.... One can also ask, legitimately, if he was solely "responsible" for a phenomenon that became clear very soon after the Second Vatican Council, when he wasn't even yet Pope. Sandro Magister in the past wrote about the dissolution of the liturgy and liturgical music and although he also mentioned JP II's "tin ear", he related examples of what happened overnight, after Vatican II, in monasteries and parishes where priests went wild, got out their guitars and noise-instruments and started to compose and perform rubbish during services, sweeping away - with jubilation - what had been an age-old tradition and the pride of Christianity for nearly a millenium and a half. Pope John Paul II, with his great charisma, could perhaps have done much to turn this tide. He was greatly loved by the young. He did write a document on church music, stressing the tradition etc., but is it true that his own masses often (or most of the time?) didn't exhibit what he "preached" in his writing on the liturgy and its music? I always thought it a great tragedy that the Catholic Church started to follow fashions in liturgical music that remind one of the worst scenarios in Pentacostal-like and charismatic Protestant "churches". Saying this, I do realise that there still seem to be RCC dioceses where this is not the case. Perhaps even certain countries have a greater regard for beauty in the liturgy? I hope members will respond to my questions, because I tend to agree with the wisdom expressed in the words "marry fashion and you end up a widower", quoted in the article by Magister (I repeat it from memory here, it may read a bit different). I am glad the author of the imaginary speeches stressed the fact that the singing of Gregorian chant is not that easy, if it is to be done well. If it is NOT done well, with subtlety and elasticity of inflection, married to the natural inflections of the texts, it can be absolutely horrible to hear. And then I don't blame anyone if they wonder what the fuss about the beauty of Gregorian chant is all about. Is it impossible for modern church choirs - AND congregations - to (re)learn this art? Of course not. |
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Unicorn |
Re: Papa on Liturgical Music | #130 | ||
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Mag6 and Galantarie, I must say that these imaginary speeches sound quite intriguing, and I shall be sure to print them out and read them tonight, when there shall be no distractions in the form of work!
Quote: Considering that for much of John Paul the Beloved's papacy I did not have cable TV or Internet service, I can't speak for the WYD liturgical celebrations. However, my family and I always made it a point to watch the Christmas and Easter Masses, and I always looked forward to them as they were opportunities for me to see our beloved John Paul. To the best of my recall, those Masses did not include the more -- err -- undesirable developments in liturgical music. I could always count on the Christmas and Easter Masses at St. Peter's for a taste -- however briefly -- of the magnificent traditional sacred music. I would imagine that during the papacy of John Paul, for the liturgical celebrations at St. Peter's, the use of traditional sacred music was maintained. It may have been during the WYD celebrations that more modern liturgical music was used. And as for John Paul's "tin ear" ... oh, I don't know ... I can remember a bit of footage from his annual meetings with university students (sponsored by Opus Dei) where one young girl from Poland was playing a Chopin nocturne, and John Paul looked completely absorbed in the music. Quote: A good question, Mag6. In my own experience, I can say that in general, liturgical celebrations in the Philippines have not had the rather unfortunate experiences of those in some countries. Of course, I do not usually hear traditional sacred music sung except on very important Church occasions, or when a particular church choir has a choirmaster who is knowledgeable in sacred music. But on the whole, although we do suffer from some rather uninspiring arrangements, at least in the church I go to, we've been spared the more radical changes in liturgical music. I agree, it is a great tragedy that in many parishes around the world, sacred music has been set aside in favor of these "trends" in modern music. I think we that we in the Catholic Church lost a truly eloquent element of our identity when the notes of sacred music fell silent during the Mass. Now, I am not a musician and I don't have that extensive a background in music history, but from what I've read and from what has been shared on the RFC thus far, it seems that true sacred music -- i.e., Gregorian chant, polyphony, etc. -- is somewhat more difficult to learn than modern music. If this is true, then the "dumbing down" of liturgical music should certainly be arrested, the sooner the better. I also do not know if this "dumbing down" was also a by-product of declining standards in the training and designation of choirmasters. Time was when a choirmaster was one who was truly well-versed in classical music and in music history, and who took his duties seriously, as a form of ministry -- a case in point, Il Papa's brother, Msgr. Georg, who for 40 years was the acclaimed choirmaster of the legendary Domspatzen. A choirmaster such as he clearly viewed his work as a means to protect such a magnificent legacy of the faith -- and in a sense, this is the responsibility of all choirmasters, from those who serve in the greatest of cathedrals to those who work in the smallest of parishes. Just my two cents' worth ... --------------------
Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI |
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mag6nideum |
Re: Papa on Liturgical Music | #131 | ||
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Thanks Unicorn - your insights and your experience in the Philipines are very helpful.
I have been watching Sunday mass in Italy for more than a year now on RAI-International, and I think that you are correct in your guess that the training for church musicians has gone down. In the bigger cities one can still find fine church musicians, but even there the choice of music being sung is sometimes very "cheap". On the whole (in Italy) the sound quality of the choirs is not good either, but this is understandable because all the choirs (except St Peters') I have seen and heard are now mixed (male and female) and many sweet old ladies are giving their time for the church choir. They obviously love the singing, and they serve God with their voices, but, purely from an aesthetic point of view, the sound is not nice - shouting, wobbles, faulty pitch etc. The days of male and pure unbroken boys' voices in choirs seem to be largely gone. So, with "democratizing" after Vatican II, the concept of including the whole congregation in the liturgy (a very Protestant philosophy) seems to have become the norm. From a theological point of view it makes sense. If only older people could still sound like when they were younger.... A previous Sandro Magister-article pointed out that in Rome Santa Maria Maggiore is really the only basilica where the tradition of Gregorian chant and polyphony is being upheld. And for the great feast days of the church calendar, St Peter's follow suit. Maybe the most significant reason for the lowering of standards in church music lies in the sad fact that by far the majority of the faithful (on grass roots level) prefer to listen to pop-music these days. We are bombarded with these sounds everywhere we go - shopping malls, restaurants et al. This has become the musical staple-food of the soul for contemporary man. And the Christian churches have capitulated in this respect. The same goes for the general music education (or what's left of it) in the majority of schools. In fact - THAT's where the cookie crumbles, in my opinion. |
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mag6nideum |
Re: Papa on Liturgical Music | #132 | ||
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By pure coincidence Zenit of October 9 has this interview about liturgical music and the theology behind it. Pope Benedict XVI's is explicitly refered to by the Benedictine author of a doctoral thesis, Jordi-Agusti Piqu. Click on "Music as a Way to Speak of God" in the list that immediately appears.
www.zenit.org/english/ |
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galantarie |
Re: Papa on Liturgical Music | #133 | ||
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Thank goodness for the music of Jacques Berthir, O.S.B. and the TAIZ movement.
There is a good example of excellent liturgical music [more than fitting true Liturgical guidelines] that the youth enjoy as well! "I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."
[Ratzinger:"Salt of the Earth"] ![]() May Our Papa's radiant-light continuously shine forth to illuminate Christ for the world! |
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rcesq |
Re: Who Knew: B16 a fan of ABBA | #134 | ||
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I think you're all missing the message in Giacomo Baroffio's "letter" from Benedict XVI. Far from condemning pop music, the Pope is a devotee of that most infectious of rock groups:
![]() From ABBA fan club Just look at what "Pope Benedict" says: Quote:QED |
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Unicorn |
Re: Who Knew: B16 a fan of ABBA | #135 | ||
Quote: Rcesq, --------------------
Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI |
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Wulfruna |
Re: Who Knew: B16 a fan of ABBA | #136 | ||
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That's really funny!!! If he only knew........
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LOUISE BROWN |
Re: Who Knew: B16 a fan of ABBA | #137 | ||
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Member
Posts: 1510 10/11/06 04:48:34 |
By the way - thanks for link!!! |
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mag6nideum |
Re: Who Knew: B16 a fan of ABBA | #138 | ||
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rcesq - your'e a terror.
Well, even a musical blue-stocking like me loves ABBA. So, there's hope for Papa, I suppose |
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Stefan60 |
#139 | |||
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Sorry, to disturb but i would ask member Louise Brown to remove the foto of a NAZI Leader from her profile.
Otherwise i would ask the Moderator to do so, because i cannot imagine showing NAZI criminals in a profile is in any way appropriate to this forum. Regards
Last Edited By: Stefan60 05/02/08 11:45:03.
Edited 1 time.
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mag6nideum |
Re: Nazi pic and Louise Brown | #140 | ||
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Stephan, I don't think this photo of Rudolf Hess (!!) ( if I'm not mistaken) has been seen before. And Louise Brown has not visited this forum for many
months. This must be a weird mistake.
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