Sorry, Benodette, I'm not going to comment further about Archbishop Marini's article. It's too much of a temptation and this is
supposed to be a time of quiet contemplation and entering into the sufferings of Christ.
 |
|
|
Welcome to The Pope Benedict XVI Forum
The Pope Benedict XVI Fan Club invites your participation in our open, yet civil and (hopefully) respectful discussion of topics by and about Pope Benedict XVI and general issues in Catholic faith & theology. Members, please acquaint yourself with our FORUM RULES -- failure to abide by the rules will result in warnings from the moderator and possible expulsion by the management. |
- Community
- Seasonal Reflections
- Cardinal Ratzinger / Pope Benedict XVI
- The Writings of Pope Benedict XVI
- The Liturgy
- Pope Benedict - Images & History
- Pope John Paul II
- Catholic Theology
- Catholic Ethics
- Music, Art & Literature
- Traditionalism
- History
- Polls
- Ratzinger Fans in Germany
- Ratzinger Fans in France
- Ratzinger Fans in Italy
- Announcements
- Administration Discussion
- Help Files
Papal clothing and liturgical practices
| Author | Comment | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
 rcesq |
#821 | |||
|
Member
Posts: 1404 03/21/08 17:30:14 Moderator |
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Benodette |
Papa Wojtyla’s Gothic Chasubles for the Easter Vigil and Easter Sunday | #822 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 5068 03/23/08 08:32:42 |
For the Easter Vigil the Pope looked splendid in a cream and gold silk chasuble and mitre which were often worn by Papa Wojtyla. The Pope wore this same set on
January 1st.
© Benodette
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
letmel |
Papal clothing and liturgical practices | #823 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 696 03/23/08 10:35:17 |
Rcesq wrote : "Sorry, Benodette, I'm not going to comment further about ............... article. It's too much of a temptation and this is supposed to be a
time of quiet contemplation and entering into the sufferings of Christ."
Indeed, but Christ also told us to love our brothers as we love ourselves, and not to """" others... Too much of a temptation ? Or...just plainly you don't know. Sorry, could not help it. In the spirit of the Sacred Triduum I've be silent , reading your posts Rcesq, or RCESQ as Galanterie writes lately. But... shocked by them and
feeling the anguish about what it looks to me, as a persistent disrespect for certain members of the Church, simply because you don't agree with their
ideas or ways. Now in the spirit of the Risen Christ, I'm just asking you to be more loving and respectful in your comments and, as I've
mentioned before to stop beeing - in my opinion- sort of an imitator of "a" particular blog.
Quote: "On the question of the Staff - I think it would have been a good thing if Pope Benedict had used a different one from the very beginning of his papacy
if there was an intention to change. We were all prepared for change then and we could have absorbed it more easily. Now it appears as if the Pope has spent
over two years treading on eggshells around the memory of Papa Wojtyla while gradually accomplishing a smooth transition to a more formal papacy. I am not
saying this is the case, just that this is the impression these changes are creating. I really do think a word of explanation would be a wise move and very
much appreciated."
Mag : I've seen the ombrellino in pictures as well . I knew about it and I actually like it . Thanks Rcesq for the information.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
letmel |
Papa Wojtyla’s Gothic Chasubles for the Easter Vigil and Easter Sunday | #824 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 697 03/23/08 13:18:38 |
Beautiful pictures Benodette, Thank you . I love the Chasubles and mitres, especially on Easter Vigil. Your picture of the altar is gorgeous. I like this arrangement of the six flanking candles on the altar better than before but not the one behind the crucifix . I'd still like to have the crucifix facing the people and the font where it was before. How brave of you to take the today's pictures ! |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Unicorn |
A very rainy Easter Sunday in La Bella Roma | #825 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 1224 03/24/08 00:14:14 |
Benodette, I shall try to get a dial-up connection tonight, so I can see your photos - they are always a very special treat for us on the RFC! I was able to see most of the Lenten celebrations, except for the Via Crucis, which was telecast in Manila at 4:00 in the morning of Holy Saturday! I had to miss that one, for fear of coming down with low blood pressure, since I'd already been up until 2:00 AM for the telecast of the Mass of the Lord's Supper at the Lateran Basilica. It is always very touching to see the Easter Vigil baptisms - this year's liturgical celebration is especially moving, given that one of the newly-baptized Catholics was a Muslim. As Rcesq said on another thread, let us pray for Magdi Allam - certain quarters in the Muslim world do not look kindly upon converts to Christianity, and Signor Allam has taken a step that truly bespeaks of great courage and a profound love of Christ. The weather in Rome yesterday morning was completely horrible, and reminds me of my experience with a Roman rainstorm. I was almost caught in a downpour during my last day in Rome; fortunately, I was able to run to the doorstep of a building not far from the bus stop along the Via Nomentana before the heavens opened. Still, whenever the wind blew in my direction, my teeth would chatter like crazy, and I wondered if my toes would finally turn blue with the cold - and this was at the end of May! I can just imagine how cold it must have been at the Piazza. Benodette, I heartily agree with Letmel, you are very brave to have taken those photos, and we are very, very grateful indeed. I recall that you were in that other horrible downpour during the canonizations last June 3rd, and that you caught a cold afterwards. March is definitely much colder than June, and I hope that you will not be so unlucky again as to come down with a bad cold, cara amica. I could see one bandmember - poor fellows, they must have been soaked to the skin, they didn't have anything by way of raingear! - discreetly hopping up and down to keep warm, and even over the TV speakers, I could hear the crack of thunder and the drumming of the rain. I hope the lightning was not directly overhead? If it was, that would have been enormously risky for the Swiss Guards, the band and other uniformed personnel in the Piazza - those halberds, metal belt buckles and buttons might turn them into lightning rods! The weather doesn't seem to have improved much, judging from this photo courtesy of the Vatican City State webcam:
Those look like very angry thunderclouds hovering over Michelangelo's dome! I really hope that we'll see the bright blue skies again soon, and that the Roman sunshine will once again light up Il Papa's unforgettable eyes. I could not help but notice how he looked rather tired during the Good Friday ceremonies, and I hope that he will be able to get some much-needed rest after the Lenten activities. It is, as always, wonderfully moving to watch the Holy Week celebrations in Rome - thanks to cable televisions, they are now becoming part of my own set of Lenten "traditions". This is Joseph Ratzinger's second Easter as Pope, and soon, he will mark the third Anniversary of his pontificate. Long may he bear the staff of the Universal Shepherd, the Ring of the Fisherman, and the Pallium of the Vicar of Christ. Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Benodette |
Interview with Guido Marini | #826 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 5074 03/24/08 03:53:37 |
"Il Riformista" has an interview with Msgr Guido Marini whci has been translated for the NLM by Gregor Kollmorgen.
"The very first reaction was great surprise and great fear. Then I felt a certain trepidation the night before beginning my service, and I also very much felt the separation from my diocese and my city, my sister and her family, from so many friends, from the places where I have exercised my priesthood in a special way: the [Genoese] curia, the seminary, the cathedral. At the same time, however, I felt much honoured to be called by the Holy Father to perform the service of Master of Liturgical Celebrations. The possibility I have been given to be near the Holy Father I have felt immediately to be a true grace for my priesthood." Monsignor Guido Marini, Genoese, 42 years old, thus describes to the "Riformista" his arrival, last October, at the Vatican to assume the post of Master of the Liturgical Celebrations of the Pope. An appointment which allows him to work in close contact with Benedict XVI. "That which I have perceived at the beginning of my new assignment - he tells - I have found confirmed exactly every time I have had the grace to encounter the Holy Father. These encounters have been and are always for me a cause of great joy and great emotion. Interview with Guido Marini |
|||
|
|
||||
|
rcesq |
Msgr. Marini, White Mozzetta and Papal Umbrella | #827 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 1406 03/24/08 19:30:01 Moderator |
Benodette, thanks for posting the interview with Msgr. Marini that I read over the weekend on the other blogs. This post is in haste -- work
actually has a way of interfering with other activities sometimes!
My impression of Msgr. Guido Marini is that he comes across as a very sweet and modest man, who actually seems as struck by "Papa Benedetto-awe" as many participants in this forum. And may I note that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, Letmel: if you think it's inappropriate to voice criticism of the novelties introduced by Marini I, it's equally inappropriate to voice criticism of the novelties introduced by Marini II. However, although I disagree with the criticisms, I do not for an instant disagree with the right to criticize, provided it is done with proper respect and moderation. I must say that I do not believe I have indulged in the excesses of personal vilification that one sees on other forums and blogs and would like to know what I have said in particular that strikes you as wrong. On a less contentious note, apparently another item of papal clothing has emerged from the mothballs: a white mozzetta to be worn during the Easter season. Hat tip from The New Liturgical Movement: 
And finally, which is the proper papal umbrella? A white one like this: 
Photo: AFP or the yellow and white one that Benodette has in her photograph: 
Photo: Benodette Ombrellinos everywhere, obviously, this Easter. Glad to see that common sense prevailed and that those in charge of the ceremonies kept il Papa out of the wet. And I second Unicorn's hope that Benodette did not get soaked and will not suffer any ill consequences from taking her wonderful pictures that she shares so generously with us. By the way, it that a new canopy on the steps of St. Peter's? The one I remember has V shaped support and a red border. This one seems different: 
Last Edited By: rcesq 03/25/08 00:58:54.
Edited 2 times.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Unicorn |
Tne White Papal Canopy | #828 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 1227 03/24/08 22:35:12 |
Glad to see that common sense prevailed and that those in charge of the ceremonies kept il Papa out of the wet.I quite agree, Rcesq. The poor man has enough problems to deal with ... the last thing he needs is to get wet and catch a horrible cold. One can only hope that Benodette will not suffer too badly from being caught in the rain. I imagine that everyone there, despite their ombrellini and raingear, got a "good" dousing. By the way, it that a new canopy on the steps of St. Peter's? The one I remember has V shaped support and a red border. This one seems different ... I think the Vatican began to use this new, white canopy beginning in mid-2007, unless I am mistaken. I think its inaugural use was either for the May 30 General Audience, or for the Mass for the Canonization of St. Marie Eugenie of Jesus Milleret, et. al. The last time the red canopy was used, if I am correct, was for the May 23 General Audience. Since I had the great good fortune to be at that Audience, I suppose I shall always remember that red canopy with fondness. Incidentally, Cardinal Foley, who did the commentary for the Easter Mass (thank God, I must admit that I much prefer him to other people!), offered the information that this particular high-tech canopy has a kind of heating system -- the good Cardinal said that he was especially grateful for that heating system, for Il Papa's sake, given the wet and chilly weather that Easter Sunday at the Piazza. Our servers are again preventing me from seeing the photos you and Benodette have posted, Rcesq, but I can at least see the Fotografia Felici photo -- those white roses beneath the icon are absolutely glorious! Incidentally, I must apologize for the photo I posted of the stormy skies above St. Peter's. I had linked to the photo of the Vatican webcam, and it seems that the link I used is the "real-time" link, which would explain the changing photos. In any case, at least we can see what the weather is like in Rome at any given time! Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI
Last Edited By: Unicorn 03/24/08 22:53:56.
Edited 1 time.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
letmel |
Msgr. Marini, White Mozzetta and Papal Umbrella | #829 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 698 03/25/08 13:13:36 |
I don't think it's inappropriate to voice criticism of the " novelties " introduced by anyone as far as you do it with the fairness and "proper respect " ( you said it right) , which sadly IMHO many of your posts are lacking when refering to some members of the Church . Reading your post #1404 it did anguish me as did many others . Due to respect , lack of time and desire I am going to abstain for further comments. I'd point out however , I may not always like what I see regarding the Papal celebrations , as it happened to me before. I believe though, that when I make a comment, I talk about Papal 's vestments , altar's arrangements or I agree about some of us opinions etc.. never have I named or singled out anyone . I did not mean to make you feel uncomfortable with my latest post's request , sorry if I did. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Unicorn |
Papal sunglasses | #830 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 1240 03/26/08 19:42:51 |
The discussion over vestments and liturgical practices has been rather passionate of late, so I though we all need a dash of light humor. Remember that great
photo of Il Papa wearing sunglasses while on a walk during one of his vacations? Well, here is another photo, courtesy of www.benedikt.ru:
I wish I knew who the photographer is ... Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI
Last Edited By: Unicorn 03/26/08 22:14:59.
Edited 1 time.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Unicorn |
The Paul VI Papal crucifix and staff | #831 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 1242 03/27/08 01:53:25 |
With the indulgence of everyone on the Forum, I thought I would share this photo of the Paul VI crucifix and papal staff, which I very much miss. I normally
refrain from posting photos with watermarks, in light of the rules of the Forum, but this photo is too beautiful -- and too eloquent -- to not share with
everyone.
I hope and pray with all my heart that we may yet see this Papal staff once again in the hands of Benedict XVI, who loves Christ our Lord with all his being. Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI
Last Edited By: Unicorn 03/27/08 01:57:51.
Edited 1 time.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
rcesq |
About Papal Crosses and Mitres and Masses | #832 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 1411 03/27/08 02:42:41 Moderator |
Who's being nostalgic now? See how it feels to lose something you've gotten used to, without explanation? It hurts, doesn't it? Now imagine that
instead of losing a single object that's only been around for less than 40 years, you lose your entire prayer book, a whole language, hundreds of years of
music, complete church designs and decorations, indeed, the very way you've lived your life as a Catholic. And the losses hurt even more if instead of
getting something better and more beautiful and uplifting, what you're offered is general mediocrity and depressing ugliness.
Whatever one may say about the papal cross that's being used now, "mediocre" or "ugly" does not apply. And even though I would like the papal ceremonies in the United States to be closer to the ones we see in Rome because that would be a good object lesson for the U.S. Church, I am also hoping paradoxically that they'll feature the kind of stuff that drives me up the wall so that you can all see I'm not just some crazy aunt who keeps stumbling upon one-off circus act liturgies. To be fair, the services I attended for Easter ranged from the 4-language Holy Thursday Mass (English, Spanish, Tagalog and Latin), when you couldn't tell what tongue you'd be hearing next and which featured the Celine Dion-like cantor of the youth Mass with cocktail lounge-like piano background music tinkling away non-stop and, for emphasis, some shakings of a tambourine; to the Gregorian chant and Latin hymns at the Good Friday liturgy (the reading of the Passion cut the narrator's intros to the speakers, so it was all more "dramatic"); to a well trained full choir beefed up with professionals singing mostly traditional hymns in Latin and English led by a new male cantor with a wonderful baritone voice and an unassuming manner at the Saturday Vigil; to a regular amateur church choir with very enthusiastic organ and brass, playing sort-of old and new classical music on Easter Sunday, ending with a full-blast Halleluia Chorus from Messiah. As you might be able to tell, I shuttled between two parishes. On another topic altogether, the blog HallowedGround has this photograph of a mosaic in the Mausoleum of Galla Placidia, Ravenna: 
Last Edited By: rcesq 03/27/08 12:30:49.
Edited 3 times.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Benodette |
About Papal Crosses and Mitres and Masses | #833 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 5083 03/27/08 06:15:14 |
I love the white Mozzetta - the Pope looks very elegant in it, especially with those fabulous emeralds.
Francesco Sforza It's a pity you can't see the emeralds in this picture. The umbrella over the Pope is the white one Rcesq. The yellow and white ones are used by the attendant clergy. The Staff - I think there is a great deal of emotion attached to this particular staff. It is not just a case of it having been around for (only) forty years. Whatever one thinks of it as a work of art, it is certainly evocative of suffering. I don't think it is correct to say that when one saw Papa Wojtyla leaning on it in his a latter years, that one saw his suffering rather than that of the Lord. Rather I think it was an eloquent statement of suffering and sacrifice which become all the more real to the observer by seeing both suffering figures together. When Papa Ratzinger took up that same staff it seemed to be a statement that he too was dependent on the suffering Lord to be take up this great load, that he took his strength from the Lord's sacrifice. The cross in use now is pretty anodyne. There is no corpus. It says nothing special. The best that can be said is that it is shiny and otherwise inoffensive. It may well have been in use by other Popes, but one does not feel any special connection in seeing the Pope carrying it. I suspect many people dislike the staff often carried by Paul VI, Papa Luciani and Papa Wojtyla simply because it is "modern" and they loathe anything modern. To be worthy an object has to be old, or at least to ape being old, and preferably Baroque. On 2 April the Pope will celebrate a Mass to commemorate the third anniversary of Papa Wojtyla's death. I wonder which staff he will carry on that day. Which one will he take to the US?
Last Edited By: Benodette 03/27/08 11:34:45.
Edited 1 time.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Wulfruna |
#834 | |||
|
Member
Posts: 853 03/27/08 09:42:56 |
The white mozzetta is beautiful and looks much less Christmassy than the red one!
As to the papal staff, is there any reason why Benedict should stick to one? As the 'suffering crucifix' is so closely associated with John Paul II of beloved memory, perhaps it is no bad thing to have a different one now we are into a new papacy. I don't say this because I 'loathe anything modern' - I like the old staff but there is no reason why it should be the only one used from now onwards. Let's hope we do see it again, however! Rcesq I agree with your comments about tradition and the feelings of hurt shared by so many. I don't really remember the old rite, but one family member of mine lapsed because he found the Novus Ordo too painful. I don't condone that, but I do feel that the shepherds have failed so many people by their insensitive pastoral behaviour in forbidding the old rite for so long. I believe that for now there should be a choice of liturgy - and a sweeping of the Augean stables as regards serious liturgical abuses such as the ones illustrated in the blog Catholic Church Conservation. Benodette, thanks for the wonderful photos of the Easter liturgies. You always go to a great effort to provide us with visual feasts from Rome and I for one appreciate it very much. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
mag6nideum |
#835 | |||
|
Member
Posts: 1383 03/27/08 11:28:33 |
The white Mozetta is beautiful. Wulfruna is right, it looks less Christmassy than the red one.
rcesq, you write quite movingly about your sense of loss with the vanishing of the liturgical beauties and reverence in the Mass that you've experienced. I do remember full well the sense of near shock that I've experienced when I started watching Mass on TV three years ago. The last Solemn Mass I could attend in person was before Vatican II. I have written about it before. The sheer beauty and transcendence of that experience made such an impression on my soul that I could never again find fulfillment in even the most admirable Protestant services ( and those were miles away from the caricatures we now see all around us.) Because I did not know the impact of Vatican II on the Mass itself, imagine my confusion when I saw my first "normal" Italian parish TV Mass after the Pope's installation. Although I haven't experienced anything awful and irreverent on Italian TV - like some of the Masses in the States - it still felt to me like almost a different Mass compared to those I could attend in Europe more than forty years ago. Musically there just is no comparison. But, all right, I do realise that I probably expect too much in this regard, given my profession. Because I'm older I can really empathise with your feeling of "loss" rcesq, even though I've experienced the Tridentine Rite as a breathless non-Catholic. On the other hand, the Novus Ordo done properly and in good taste, as I fortunately could also experience quite a few times, is still a beautiful and enriching Mass. And I love the Papal Masses. I still see much of it with less understanding of the detail and the traditions of "before" and "after" than all of you who are Catholic in bone and marrow, but the Papal Masses mean a great deal to me. The fact that the NO contains more vernacular is in some ways IMO an improvement, for obvious reasons. Even Cardinal Ratzinger felt this should not be changed. Is there any possibility for you to attend the Tridentine Rite in your vicinity, rcesq? I have this option, although I'll have to travel a bit. The fact that it is offered here by the Society of Pius X also puts me off a bit, but what the heck, I'll go some times. Benodette, you gave us some beautiful Roman glimpses once again. Thank you! |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Unicorn |
About the liturgy in general | #836 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 1243 03/27/08 19:22:17 |
Who's being nostalgic now? See how it feels to lose something you've gotten used to, without explanation? It hurts, doesn't it? Now imagine that instead of losing a single object that's only been around for less than 40 years, you lose your entire prayer book, a whole language, hundreds of years of music, complete church designs and decorations, indeed, the very way you've lived your life as a Catholic. And the losses hurt even more if instead of getting something better and more beautiful and uplifting, what you're offered is general mediocrity and depressing ugliness.
Rcesq, I am sorry if I caused you any hurt by posting the photograph of the Paul VI staff and expressing my hope that it will be seen again. To be honest, I don't know what I can say anymore on this thread about John Paul the Beloved, anything connected to him, or anything about the post-Conciliar Church that will not vex you. You are a good friend, and I am not happy about the fact that there are some things I say that don't seem to agree with you. I trust, however, that you will understand that for someone like me, born and raised in the post-Conciliar period, in a country that was mercifully spared the liturgical abuses suffered by some quarters of the Church, and whose life, for the most part, has witnessed the pontificate of a Pope who was deeply loved by virtually every Filipino Catholic and who for me epitomizes so much of what the Vicar of Christ should be, I will have the opinions I have about certain issues that have been discussed on this thread. That being said, I don't think that anyone on this Forum - myself included - does not understand how painful the liturgical changes of the post-Conciliar era were to you and to those who were born and raised with the Tridentine rite. I do not know what else I can say to you to assure you that just because some of us here don't agree with the changes being made by the Papal MC, it certainly does not mean that we don't understand the sense of loss experienced by those who love the Tridentine rite, or that we don't like the Tridentine rite at all, or that we don't have an appreciation for the role of the liturgy in the life of the Church. Benodette and PaxTibi have both said that they find it both beautiful and very moving, and I have also said on this Forum that I would like to see the Tridentine rite properly celebrated in all its glory, something that I think can best be given justice at St. Peter's itself, with the Pope at the altar. What I do not like about what is happening now at the Vatican, and this is a sentiment that has likewise been expressed by others, is that what we seem to be seeing is an inelegant attempt by one person (and I don't mean the Pope) to make changes in the liturgy, changes which, I might add, don't do justice to either the Tridentine rite or to the Novus Ordo rite. I have seen the Novus Ordo celebrated properly, and I want to see the Tridentine rite celebrated properly, not a "hybrid" of the two that is clearly not the result of extensive study by the Congregation on Divine Worship and the Sacraments. What I am not happy about is seeing the return of certain practices that are more temporal in character than spiritual, practices which,
in my opinion, are no longer necessary to underscore the role and mission of the Papacy, which may yet entail unnecessary resource outlays on the part of the
Holy See, and which I do believe will eventually pose risks to papal well-being. Are cope-bearers, gilded thrones, and expensive
reproductions of antique vestments absolutely necessary to the Tridentine rite, or to addressing the abuses of the liturgy? I'd
rather have a magnificent choir that can sing the Gregorian chants properly - you can have the Tridentine without the cope-bearers, but not without the
Gregorian chants. Or, let's have a more strict implementation of the IGMR.
I have said it before and I shall say it again … I am profoundly sorry that you witnessed such appalling abuses of the liturgy. I don't, and I certainly never shall, condone the abuses you witnessed -- they are completely abhorrent. I also want to hear the magnificent sacred music performed more often. I absolutely uphold the need for reverence and solemnity during the Mass. And how could I abhor the older rite, when it was the rite witnessed by my parents, Catholics both, who passed on their faith to me and my sister? If I could apologize to you on behalf of all the generations born after Vatican II, I would do so. I assure you that if I had witnessed what you had witnessed, I would be complaining vociferously to my diocese, or would make the effort to find a parish where the Novus Ordo is celebrated properly. But again, as I have said before, I fervently believe that any changes to the liturgy - particularly as it is used during the Papal Masses - should come about as a result of careful study and deliberation by the Congregation on Divine Worship and the Sacraments and the global episcopate. I have no doubt that during such a deliberation, there will be those bishops who will articulate the sentiments shared by people such as yourself who have an abiding and understandable love for the Tridentine rite, and these will be taken into account. This, at least, would assure us that whatever the Congregation will recommend to the Pope, it will be something that takes into the account the entire Church, and was crafted by clergymen who are true experts in all aspects of the pre- and post-Conciliar liturgy. Since the liturgy is, as we all agree, immensely important to the life of the Church, surely any changes to it deserve the intensive and comprehensive study that can best be carried out by the CDW, and not just the perspectives of one person who happens to now be in charge of the Papal Masses? More to the point, don't the Papal Masses - viewed by countless Catholics around the world to be the best expression of the liturgy - themselves deserve to be the fruit of such enlightened, conscientious and spiritually-inspired study by the entire episcopate and the best liturgical experts the Church has to offer? I must again express my regret that there were some very serious lapses if those post-Conciliar liturgical changes were implemented "without explanation". My question is this: should that mistake be made again? Since some quarters of the Church have already experienced the sad consequences of "reforms without explanation", don't you think it would have been better this time around if some explanation had been made about the changes to the Papal Masses? What good would it do if a "tit-for-tat" mentality is adopted by certain people in the Curia: "well, you didn't explain it to us before, so we won't explain it to you now"? Would that kind of an attitude help to heal the breach between the pre- and post-Conciliar quarters of the Church? Based on the accounts of other people on this Forum, however, it is clear that the abuses you witnessed are not the norm in the post-Conciliar Church. Is that not a good reason to hope? Would the Church not be well-served as well if these examples of the proper implementation of the post-Conciliar liturgy are held up for emulation? And as Cardinal Arinze said in the article I posted on the Catholic Teaching and Belief thread, "The pope cannot reinvent everything, or act as if Vatican II did not take place," and has likewise affirmed that "one priority that has carried over to the new pontificate is the translation of liturgical texts." That tells us that not everything about Vatican II was a disaster, does it not? Proud to be Papist! "Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved ..." - Benedict XVI "He knocks at the door, he is close to us and thus true joy is close, which is stronger than all the sorrows in the world, and in our life." - Benedict XVI
Last Edited By: Unicorn 03/27/08 21:37:39.
Edited 3 times.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
rcesq |
On Crucifixes and Liturgical Abuses | #837 | ||
|
Member
Posts: 1412 03/27/08 22:45:56 Moderator |
Unicorn: I'm not offended by the posting of the Paul VI cross. (In case you were wondering, I did not have anything to do with the image
not appearing for a while. When I edit a post I make a note of the edit.) Pope Benedict could choose to use it until the end of his days and I wouldn't
mind, but I am wholly sympathetic to the idea that he (or the papal MC) might decide it's better not to carry it around anymore.
For what it's worth, carrying a cross without a corpus might be another gesture towards the Orthodox Church. In the Orthodox tradition, the focus is not on the Crucifixion but on the Resurrection. The Greek Orthodox cathedral in my town, for example, is adorned with murals depicting the life of Christ. However, the scenes of the Passion of Christ depict Jesus carrying the Cross and being taken down from the Cross. Where in the Latin Church we'd have the actual Crucifixion shown, there's the Risen Christ looking at the empty spot between the two thieves, with the empty cross lying at his feet: 
Photo: St. Sophia You may note that in many orthodox churches the picture in the dome is Christos Pantocrator -- Christ the Almighty. It dominates the building. Depictions of the Crucifixion are far less prominent and may not be found at all. There's general agreement that the focus of Pope Benedict's catechesis has been on the positive side of Catholicism. He's trying to get away from the image of the Church as an entity that keeps saying "thou shalt not" and making people accept their suffering (and even making them suffer -- see the canard that the Church has helped spread AIDS by rejecting the use of condoms and, of course, the whole clergy abuse mess). In its place he is teaching about the positive aspects of faith: love, freedom, self-realization through friendship with the living Lord, hope. If a "prop" like the papal staff (I don't mean to denigrate the Crucifix, but this is what its function is perceived to be on the secular stage) can help underscore that message, all the better. Before the bent Crucifix of Paul VI and John Paul II can be seen as a message of hope, it most certainly takes some explaining to a secular society that doesn't know much about Christian theology. As for asking "whos's nostalgic now" I'm just trying to make the point that if one tiny change like a different papal cross can affect you and others so much, and that by restoring the Paul VI/JP II cross you'd be a lot happier, I don't understand why there is so much handwringing when some things that many people like me miss just as much and love just as dearly are now being restored. Your comments and those of others about Msgr. Guido Marini and "his" modifications suggest that you think he's dreaming up these changes all by himself. It's exactly what those who dislike Archbishop Marini accuse him of having done all these years. If you think it isn't fair of "traditionalists" to pin the blame for Spirit of Vatican II innovations on Archbishop Marini, it isn't fair to blame Msgr. Marini for the innovations you're seeing now. Both men presumably had staff and researchers and others working with them. I seriously doubt that the good Monsignor spends his time rummaging about in papal wardrobes and ceremonial paraphernalia storage closets all by himself. And, if Archbishop Marini was perceived as having the full backing of the Pope while he was in office, why is there such skepticism about papal backing for Msgr. Marini? In fact, if anything, one may logically surmise that Pope Benedict may be more supportive of Msgr. Marini than of Archbishop Marini because, after all, he appointed the Monsignor while he inherited the Archbishop. I find it very unlikely that Pope Benedict wasn't informed about Msgr. Marini's tastes and style before he was given the job. In addition, the sudden desire for thorough scholarly study and heavyweight episcopal consultations before anything liturgical can be touched, surprises. No such requirements were imposed when we were presented with a new pallium and a different papal ring and a mitre instead of a tiara on the papal crest. I didn't hear cries of protest when the Pope prostrated himself on Good Friday under Marini I's MCship -- a gesture that Pope John Paul II apparently never made (at least I haven't seen anyone discuss it or post a picture of it). And as for abuses not being the norm, I don't think that the comments you see on this forum should be taken as anywhere near an accurate measure of the state of the liturgy in the world wide Church. Cardinal Arinze has very trenchant things to say about it, and he has the pulse of the entire Church. Indeed, liturgical abuses apparently reached such a stage that in 2004 the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacrament issued an "Instruction on certain matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist, Redemptionis Sacramentum [3.] The norms contained in the present Instruction are to be understood as pertaining to liturgical matters in the Roman Rite, and, mutatis mutandis, in the other Rites of the Latin Church that are duly acknowledged by law. | |||
